Trying to understand Section Teams

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stacktrace
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Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by stacktrace »

Brilliant set of rules, thank you. I am having a difficult time though groking when teams from the same section act as a section rather than as individual teams. I reread the rules again last night and I think I have it now, but it is based on an interpretation I am unsure is true.

When I use a command die of 2 to activate a section, do all teams that belong to that section get to activate, no matter where they are on the board, as long as they are given the same order, or must they be within 4 inches of each other to act as a section?

If the answer to the above is no:
- If a section breaks off a scout team, thus creating 2 teams which then moves ahead (further than 4 inches) does this mean this section can no longer activate on a 2? What if the pair of scouts is eliminated? Are the remainder of the section thereafter only a team which requires a 1 to activate?


The example in the book shows that if some of the teams in the section cannot follow the order, they just do nothing. Does this mean I can activate a section broken into 3 teams on a 2, even though one of the teams has already been activated (on a 1) and that the prior team simply does not follow the section order, but the other 2 do? Does it make a difference if the section is only made up of 2 teams (one of which has activated already)? Can I choose to have one team in the section ignore a section order (even though they could perform said order)? And if so, are they still considered to have activated for the phase there-after?


Do teams automatically disintegrate and become just a section again once within 4 inches, or only if the player wishes that so. Does this mean that if the 2 initial teams that make up a section are deployed together within 4 inches, they are just a section instead of 2 teams?

Also, it costs 1 command initiative to form a new team regardless of how many men are put into the team, but it costs 1 command initiative per man to move men between existing teams. Is this correct?

Under the deployment rules it mentions the ability to deploy a scout team from the section on a 1. Is this intended as scenario specific, or can any team break off a scout team to deploy on a 1 while they are still off table, with such team formation not costing a point of command initiative as normal?


Hoping someone can clear this up for me. It is ironic that one of the main draws of this game for me was the ability to break up a squad into smaller teams like this, but yet it is the part of the rules I am having the toughest time working out.

Thank you in advance.
-Mark

Peter
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by Peter »

A couple of points:

You may always activate any single team on a 1 (ore one command from a leader)
You may only activate a section on a 2 (or one command from a leader) if
a) all of the teams are within 4" of one another and
b) all teams are doing the same things (moving together or firing, though they can fire at different targets.

Splitting off a scout or two does not break the integrity of the section, and they will automatically re-integrate when they are within 4" of the section again. To be honest, I don't think setting up informal teams (as opposed to the established ones, eg LMG and rifle teams in many armies) is a common event, and even scouts (as you would expect) aren't much use once the enemy have deployed - they act to force such deployments at low risk.

Hope that helps - someone else will no doubt say it more clearly.

Peter

siggian
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by siggian »

stacktrace wrote: When I use a command die of 2 to activate a section, do all teams that belong to that section get to activate, no matter where they are on the board, as long as they are given the same order, or must they be within 4 inches of each other to act as a section?
Yes, the two teams must be within 4" of each other (otherwise they are not a section) and they must do the same action, but both are activated. See page 17. Think of an activation as an "order". The 2 gives you one order such as "Everyone go to the hedge." If you have a 3, the JL can shout out two orders so the two teams can do different things.
stacktrace wrote: - If a section breaks off a scout team, thus creating 2 teams which then moves ahead (further than 4 inches) does this mean this section can no longer activate on a 2? What if the pair of scouts is eliminated? Are the remainder of the section thereafter only a team which requires a 1 to activate?
The section can still activate on a 2. I'm not sure if there's an official rule, but I say that a section is still a section if contains figures from more than one team (if the nation has teams) and it contains more men than any single team broken off from it. So for me, you could have a section of 4 figures (MG team plus 1 figure from the rifle team) that spawned off a team of 3 figures and a team of 2 figures. Any gamey advantage you get from being able to use 2s would be counteracted by how vulnerable the small teams are and how unwieldy it is to command three units.
stacktrace wrote: The example in the book shows that if some of the teams in the section cannot follow the order, they just do nothing. Does this mean I can activate a section broken into 3 teams on a 2, even though one of the teams has already been activated (on a 1) and that the prior team simply does not follow the section order, but the other 2 do? Does it make a difference if the section is only made up of 2 teams (one of which has activated already)? Can I choose to have one team in the section ignore a section order (even though they could perform said order)? And if so, are they still considered to have activated for the phase there-after?
Good questions. I'm inclined to say that you cannot use a 2 to activate a section that has a team that has already been activated. In essence, part of the section has already been ordered to do something ("No Leader or Unit may be activated more than once in any single Phase;" p17).
stacktrace wrote: Do teams automatically disintegrate and become just a section again once within 4 inches, or only if the player wishes that so. Does this mean that if the 2 initial teams that make up a section are deployed together within 4 inches, they are just a section instead of 2 teams?
Ad hoc teams automatically fold back into the section when they come within 4" of the section. No choice. Built in teams remain as teams. Basically, what the JL needs to do is create the ad hoc team with one CI, and then use the other CI to either move the new team or the old section at least 4" away immediately.
stacktrace wrote: Also, it costs 1 command initiative to form a new team regardless of how many men are put into the team, but it costs 1 command initiative per man to move men between existing teams. Is this correct?
Correct
stacktrace wrote: Under the deployment rules it mentions the ability to deploy a scout team from the section on a 1. Is this intended as scenario specific, or can any team break off a scout team to deploy on a 1 while they are still off table, with such team formation not costing a point of command initiative as normal?
I'm not sure. I think any section can do this (deploy the scout team on a 1). Here's what the rules say:
On a Command Dice roll of 1, a single discrete Infantry Team, such as a mortar or Panzerschreck, may deploy onto the table. This will not be a Team that is part of a Section or Squad, unless it is a one or two man Scout Team advancing onto the table ahead of its parent Section;

stacktrace
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by stacktrace »

Thank you both for the excellent replies. That helps a lot.


The only thing still bothering me, is if a section that begins as two teams can activate on a 2 if the two teams are further than 4 inches?

And can that same section activate on a 2 if it has lost one of its teams as casualties (only has 1 team remaining)?

Archdukek
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by Archdukek »

A couple of quick additional comments to siggian's answers which I generally agree with.

For a 2 team section, as siggian says, you cannot activate one team using a 1 and then the remaining team using a 2. You would have to use another command dice of 1 or activate the JL. However, in the case of 3 team sections I would allow you to activate one team on a 1 and the rest of the team as a section. The most common example would be to allow you to activate the scouts on a 1 then order the rest of the section to do something else on a 2.

It only costs 1CI to create an ad hoc team and give it it's initial order, not 2. Think of it as the JL saying "Joe, Bill get up that lane and see if you can find the enemy". It's a single order so 1 CI.

Any infantry section can spin off a scout team as its initial deployment, it isn't scenario specific. You can only do this with scouts, you can't deploy say the LMG team from a section on a 1. The whole section needs to deploy together on a 2 or 3.

As to your other questions, if the 2 teams are more than 4" apart they cannot be activated as a section on a 2 even if they begin the game as 2 teams.

You can however use your JL as the link between the 2 teams, so if he is within 4" of each team but they are more than 4" apart it still counts as a section. Each team needs to have a figure within 4" of another member of the unit and the JL would qualify as that. It's a bit vulnerable though if he is killed.

If a 2 team section loses 1 of its teams it is no longer a section and must be activated as a team using a 1.
John

hedgehobbit
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by hedgehobbit »

Archdukek wrote:If a 2 team section loses 1 of its teams it is no longer a section and must be activated as a team using a 1.
We've been playing this the opposite way. I asked this specific question about a year ago and never got an answer.

I take the rule 5.4.7 to mean that any small team can split off from the main squad and the remaining troops still count as a squad (i.e. activate on a "2"). So, for example, the two-man bazooka teams in the US armored infantry squads can move off to hunt tanks while the remaining men still can use a 2.

This comes from an old thread where Rich talks about making sure the squad is "still intact." Otherwise, I could use two CI to move the bazooka dudes into the rifle squad then use another to make a "scout" team consisting of a bazooka and his crewman. That just seems silly to have to do that.

Archdukek
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by Archdukek »

Hi hedgehobbit,
I was making a general point about those sections which consist of 2 teams from the outset such as the Germans, British and US Infantry.
The US Armored Infantry platoon has a rather unique structure in the Army list in the rules since each Squad is specifically identified as having a single rifle team, unlike Russian squads. That gives it more tactical flexibility than it would otherwise have since, as I understand it, it can be activated on a 1 or a 2.

I agree with what you say about rule 5.4.7, the Armored Rifle platoon can spin off a bazooka team and still remain a squad . Other nations sections/squads can equally spin off a scout team and still remain a section/squad if the scouts are killed.
John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by Truscott Trotter »

They way I read it is the US ARP HAS to separate the bazooka teams it forms - they would form a Separate weapon teams as per
9.3 INFANTRY ANTI‐TANK WEAPONS
Infantry anti‐tank weapons fall into two
categories: specific Teams which are dedicated
tank‐killing Teams, such as the PIAT, anti‐tank
rifle or Panzerschreck Teams;

AND
9.3.1 ANTI‐TANK WEAPONS TEAM
A dedicated weapon Team may move or fire in
the same way as any other Team. It may be
activated on a roll of 1 on the Command Dice or
by a Leader using one Command Initiative.

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john de terre neuve
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by john de terre neuve »

siggian said:
On a Command Dice roll of 1, a single discrete Infantry Team, such as a mortar or Panzerschreck, may deploy onto the table. This will not be a Team that is part of a Section or Squad, unless it is a one or two man Scout Team advancing onto the table ahead of its parent Section;
I was surprised by this, my sense was that you could deploy a team (LMG) without the JL from an undeployed section on a CD of 1.

Do I have this wrong?

John

Archdukek
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Re: Trying to understand Section Teams

Post by Archdukek »

Yes John you have it wrong. You can't deploy the LMG team from an uncommitted section on a CD of 1.
I used to think you could too, but learned the error of my ways from an early post of Rich's.
John

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