Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

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MAsta_KFC
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Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by MAsta_KFC »

Hello All,

I was just wondering if anyone has house ruled buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs? I'm imagining a buttoned AFV could suffer something simulating maybe an awareness penalty?

Just throwing it out there :)

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Seret
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Seret »

Interesting idea. I would imagine you could balance it by penalising buttoned AFVs on awareness (ie: cannot spot infantry within 6"?) while making commanders that are head out vulnerable to sniper fire.

I think you'd want to avoid basing actual fields of view on the position of vision ports and slots, you'd get bogged down in discussions of the exact particulars of individual AFVS and variants thereof.

Did Soviet armour always fight buttoned in WW2? That was certainly their post-WW2 doctrine. I know German vehicle commanders in the desert were renowned for fighting head out in all but the most adverse conditions.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Germans in all theatres fought head out......and lost a lot of heads
Soviets almost always fought buttoned up ....and lost a lot of tanks
Western allies?

Nick B
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Nick B »

It would be good to have a differentiator - we came a cross a situation in a game a couple of weeks away where out of desperation one player wanted to try a chuck a grenade into a tank turret hatch. The this raised several questions

1. Should you specify at the beginning of the game if the top hatch is open?
2. If open - does the -6 negative modifier take into account that the commander's in the way?
3. If the commander is heads up - can you throw grenades at him?

Essentially we decided that tanks were unbuttoned unless you specified otherwise and that no further negative was needed to the throw.

Archdukek
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Archdukek »

Funnily enough at the ground scale of CoC and given the close proximity of enemy infantry I would have said that the default position is that the tanks were buttoned up.
John

Nick B
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Nick B »

John,

I wouldn't disagree - we just went with that at the time to keep the game rolling.

I think the question remains as to what advantages there should be if not buttoned up or what disadvantages if buttoned up - to observation etc.

Cheers

Nick

Peter
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Peter »

Bear in mind that the vehicle rules are really not that granular: my own pet peeve is that one-man turreted tanks are as efficient as those with two or three crew available.
Back to the topic: I'd assume buttoned up and only unbuttoned if using an AA MG mounted on the turret. Even in that case, I wouldn't have thought a grenade would get in the hatch unless dropped in, and (in the rules as written) the gunner is invulnerable except to a sniper.

Peter

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I suspect that unless you were a (non-MCC) cricketer throwing a grenade into an open hatch at 25 yards of even a stationary tank would require more throws than the entire companies supply of grenades!

Archdukek
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Archdukek »

The rules already impose restrictions on both the arc of visibility from an AFV and restrict firing to being on the command of the JL so you need a '3' on your command dice (see p70). So I would say this reflects the limited visibility of buttoned up vehicles already.
Personally I don't see the need for greater granularity.
On one man turrets I thought I had seen something in the army lists on this. They are more vulnerable since hits on the gunner are treated as hits on the commander which is pretty debilitating.
John

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Seret
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Re: Rules for buttoned/unbuttoned AFVs?

Post by Seret »

Archdukek wrote:given the close proximity of enemy infantry I would have said that the default position is that the tanks were buttoned up.
John
In general I'd agree. With infantry nearby they'd normally be buttoned up, but if they were spotted at very close range then they'd man all the machine guns and open up to suppress light antitank weapons. That's why the Germans started doing things like putting a remote weapon station on the Hetzer, they lost a lot of guys who'd popped the hatch to put up some suppressive fire.
2. If open - does the -6 negative modifier take into account that the commander's in the way?
The -6 is for an open-topped tank turret (eg: Puma). A single hatch would be even smaller. One with a fella standing in it ready to bat unfriendly grenades away smaller still. I'd say it's not a valid target unless you climbed up on top of the tank to post it in, while punching the commander repeatedly in the face to keep him busy.

3. If the commander is heads up - can you throw grenades at him?
Not under the normal rules, no. Only snipers can target a vehicle crewman, and only if he's manning an MG. This seems to simulate the fact that the crew are normally buttoned unless they've manned a gun up top.

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