Close combat & tanks

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GavinP
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Close combat & tanks

Post by GavinP »

Can someone point me in the direction of the rules which govern infantry close assaulting a tank? I can find the vehicle over running rules fine, but not the reverse and its kind of critical given that the American para bazooka team has been wiped out.

fred
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by fred »

Me too.

I had my Paras harassed by a half-track, and was unsure how they could assault it.

The things I could find, were fire an LMG, and get a small chance of a drive back
Throw a grenade, with a low chance of landing it in the open back.
Fire a light mortar, with only a 12 hitting

Seemed that the paras should have been able to close and close-assault with grenades.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Infantry cannot close assault tanks in the same way they do infantry in COC .

13.2 TANK OVER‐RUNS
Vehicles may not fight in Close Combat,

I would suggest throwing AT grenades or satchel charges is the best representation along with the afore mentioned shooting at the slits. I have read accounts of Germans knocking on the hatches of Soviet tanks and when they open throwing grenades in and slamming the hatch shut - but I am not sure whether to believe these first hand accounts :roll: :lol:

GavinP
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by GavinP »

I think that the rules regarding this are those concerning tank killer teams.

British paras can take 2 "compound" charges from the support list (I think this is a holdover from the German list and is incorrect and should read sticky bombs). Additionally, it says that they can take from the list in table 7, but why would you take the sticky bomb when given the choice of gammon and Hawkins mines?

Also, how many charges do you need to make a daisy chain?

None of that helps though for the American paras who don't have anything in the support lists, but from my understanding for Normandy they were brimming with equipment. I know a lot was lost in drop bags ( presumably some were found later?) but some must have been kept, and I've seen pictures of them with Hawkins mines strapped to legs. One account of the 506th I found online has 1 mine per man in a small detachment. So, how many can they take, and are they constrained like the British to being carried by the senior leader, or just spread through the troops?

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by Truscott Trotter »

IIRC they should have Gammon bombs ....or at least spare socks :P

JimLeCat
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by JimLeCat »

I think the tales of infantry posting grenades into tanks like that are one of those things that did happen, but so rarely that they are commented on, remembered and become almost legendary. The game doesn't cover them because they are so unlikely. If it is open topped (half-track or SPG), then this becomes eminently feasible, of course.

Otherwise, what can infantry do without appropriate weaponry? Answer, not a lot! About the only thing I can suggest if they have no AT weaponry is to fire all available small arms at the vehicle, which automatically scores 0 hits. The vehicle then tries to save as if it is an AT attack. If they get no saves. then you get a roll on the 'net 0 hits' row. If it is a half-track, then you can drive it off entirely if you are lucky. Of course, if it is a tank, the best result is that the tank backs off a bit, and it is equally likely that the tank will stop and shoot back! But, if you are desperate...

GavinP
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by GavinP »

Jim, While I'm not really advocating that every game turn into Saving Private Ryan, from a GAME perspective, if the enemy has a tank, and you have no AT then it ceases being very much fun rather quickly. Additionally, I think it's perfectly reasonable that Elite troops, issued with these weapons, would use them if the situation arose. As you say, desperate.

drolmops
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by drolmops »

There's a possibility of assaulting a tank using the grenade rules on page 40/41. Let a man or team move up to the tank. Then order them to chuck some grenades. To hit rolls are at a -6, but since you're basically on top of the tank you'd have to roll no more than a 7 (range is 0"). Still risky, but if you can get that grenade inside it can do a lot of damage.
I don't know if is reallistic that a tank would always have an open hatch.

JimLeCat
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by JimLeCat »

Hi Gavin,

I understand that, although if the enemy has only one tank, then go for the supporting infantry and try to break their morale that way. Remember, tanks are comparatively slow and clumsy in this. Also, try not to let on that you are out of AT options. Try to make your opponent hold back the tank and put forward their infantry, where it is easier for you to hurt them. All in all, difficult, but not impossible - and entirely historical!

If of course, they have only tanks and you have no AT weapons, well then you are modelling the Blitzkreig... ;^) More seriously even then? They have jump-off points and can't handle rough terrain well. Try and manouver round them and take their jump-off points. You may just break their morale that way (basically you've persuaded them that this is no place for unsupported tanks so they withdraw).

Dropmops - if a tank is unsupported by friendly infantry in close terrain, I would assume it's buttoned up, all hatches closed, unless the owning player declares otherwise. Under most circumstances in combat, I would assume that at most the commander has his hatch open.

Cheers,
Jim

GavinP
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Re: Close combat & tanks

Post by GavinP »

Jim, I agree with your points although when one side is defending and has no AT, and the others have a tank then chasing JoP's seems abstract at best and suicidal at worst. Especially when the tank is already on top of you... But I digress. (And for the record, I wasn't playing last night so for once it's not my fault :) )

So, the question remains, how do American's get access to the cool AT weapons in table 7 since they're not in their support list, and if they're inherent then how many and of what type do they have? I'm thinking 12 Hawkins Mines per squad is perhaps a little overkill...

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