LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

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redmist1122
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LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by redmist1122 »

Not sure how many have played this cool PSC, but my buddy Slat and I have started. I have a few questions concerning German troops listed in the German Support List.

First, what is the composition of a Pionier Section with Junior Leader?
Second, what is the composition of the Regular Schützen Infantry Squad with Junior Leader?
Third, what can the Pionier Engineering team (3 men) do for the game?

1 - I came up with a Jr Ldr, 3 men LMG Team, and a 3-man Demo team.
2 - I came up Jr Ldr, 1st LMG Team w 3 crew and two riflemen, 2nd LMG Team w 3 crew and three riflemen.
3 - Three figures w/charges? Dunno, but helps secure captured support vehicles and troops.

These are not defined in the article, so I had to dig through some listings posted a few years back.

What do you think?

Thanks.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Hi Greg
What makes you think that in tje PSC the pioneer section would be different than normal?
Only asking as I don't have the mag.

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Capt Fortier
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Capt Fortier »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:57 am
Hi Greg
What makes you think that in tje PSC the pioneer section would be different than normal?
Only asking as I don't have the mag.
TT - the PSC has the German core platoon made up of 5 tanks only. Also, a key campaign objective is for the German to "capture" surrendered support vehicles and units. While the tanks can cause a support vehicle or green unit to surrender (there is a mechanism built into the PSC rules for this) it requires infantry/engineers for the vehicle/unit to be "captured" (which then removes both the captive and captor from the table), and these are only available to purchase as supports. Also, these get 1-point more expensive to purchase for each Campaign Turn and require at least one support vehicle to transport them, so by Turn 4 a 3-man engineering team is costing the German player a minimum of 6 support points and a full Schutzen squad costs a minimum of 10 points.

As the author notes in the historical background:
German accounts of this fighting indicate that “wherever the tanks were the enemy surrendered,” with armored regimental commanders repeatedly requesting “for infantry to be sent up urgently to mop up the battlefield and take over the prisoners.” ... In a desperate attempt to get any infantry forward in support of his tanks, [Commander of the 8th Panzer Regiment Hans] Cramer brought up elements of the 33rd Pionier Battalion, which had organic armored transport in the form of half-tracks. Ultimately, even this proved insufficient however, and as the attack wore on through the late afternoon some German engineers rode into action on the tanks themselves. In their wake, the advance of the German armored force left large numbers of sullen prisoners under the watchful eye of sappers and infantry, along with the smoking ruins of wrecked fighting and transport vehicles – Axis and Allied alike.
Therefore infantry/engineers play a somewhat different and special role in this PSC than might normally be the case.

Greg/redmist1122 - I've not played this PSC, but I'd suggest on your questions:
1. Pioneer Section - as TT says (and noting this is from Support List 4), I'd suggest this is the same as the core rules - so two 3-men engineering teams plus a JL - and given the scenarios do not have any wire to cut, mines to clear, or anything to demolish, I think you could use any such team (though note my further comments at * below);
2. Schutzen Section - use the official DAK list for the Schutzen - which would give you a section/squad of two LMG teams (one with LMG + 2 crew +4 riflemen; one with LMG + 2 crew + 3 riflemen);
3. What can your Pioneer team/section do? Subject to my further comments below (*), I think you're right that it was intended that all they do is escort captured vehicles or teams off the table, but I think it ends up being the only affordable option for having men available to do that. Clearly it also requires a modification to the standard rules (16.1.2) around such teams not moving closer to the enemy (and maybe also about their surrendering if in close combat?).

* I think, given that German Pioneers are regarded as generally having an assault capability, it is not unreasonable to have them armed with rifles and able to function as a 3-man rifle team. You could even consider using the Blitzkrieg Pioneer squad (LMG with 3 crew and 12 riflemen) - but then that should be more like List 5+ than List 4.

Really interested to see how your campaign plays out.
Capt Fortier

“Frapper l'ennemi, c'est bien. Frapper l'imagination, c'est mieux.” - Jean de Lattre de Tassigny

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Thanks for the explination Capt.

If they haven't given any special rules for the units I woild assume they are the same as normal.

I find a few of the magazine articles seem to be missing info needed to play tje scanrios.

Having said that I have always said the German (and US and Soviet) combat engineers need different rules, similar to those in BK Pioneers, although they raise a few questions too!

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redmist1122
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by redmist1122 »

Almost forgot about this post...really appreciate the insights for the team/squad composition. Ah...forgot about the DAK listing...I have that.

I agree for the pioneer teams...nothing to doing engineering wise...so I ended up using them in a vehicle (250) to take over security when a tank captures a support or infantry guys. I did have them dismount in Game 1 and fire their rifles.

I just about played out almost all the CoC games and PSC in the Specials and LardMags, and TT you're right...small golden nuggets of information is missing. I think like most authors...thinking faster than typing. That's why I come back to you guys...the smart guys!

Thanks again.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA

Munin
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Munin »

Oooh, sorry I didn't see this one earlier! I am the author of that PSC, and I can tell you that Capt Fortier is spot-on - the Pionier team/section are the same as in the core game and the DAK army list (so either a 3man team or two 3-man teams plus a JL). On the day in question they weren't doing anything even remotely related to their role as combat engineers, instead being dragooned into a basic support task: warm bodies holding prisoners at rifle-point. If you wanted to reflect the idea that Pionier squads often took a more "active" role in combat, I'd say having a 3-man team armed with an LMG wouldn't be beyond reason (though I might limit it to one such team for a two-team Pionier section).
redmist1122 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:56 am
I agree for the pioneer teams...nothing to doing engineering wise...so I ended up using them in a vehicle (250) to take over security when a tank captures a support or infantry guys. I did have them dismount in Game 1 and fire their rifles.
Hahaha, in every game in playtest in which a single team of engineers hopped out of a vehicle to do anything but effect capture, they got Bren'ed to death almost immediately - which is pretty much exactly what happened historically.
redmist1122 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:56 am
I just about played out almost all the CoC games and PSC in the Specials and LardMags, and TT you're right...small golden nuggets of information is missing. I think like most authors...thinking faster than typing. That's why I come back to you guys...the smart guys!
While you're not wrong, it's worth noting that the version of the article that went to print was actually the first one I sent Nick and not the last one. :facepalm: The final version had more detail/clarity in it, but it somehow got reverted while Nick was doing the layout when I sent in the last of the graphics. If you want, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you the final version.

Neil Todd
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Neil Todd »

I have half played through this PSC and while it looks hard for the infantry force, careful planning and a little luck can turn things around very quickly. I am keen to give it ago from the German POV. It is CoC but it is very different

Munin
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Munin »

Neil Todd wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:27 am
It is CoC but it is very different
Yay, that was the intent! :)

And yes, I think if anything the campaign scoring is tilted slightly in favor of the South Africans. For the Germans the key is in prioritizing your competing objectives. For the South Africans, the challenge is in keeping your head while everything goes to hell around you and focusing on buying time. For the German player to have a chance at a campaign victory, he or she almost needs to leap out to a commanding lead early, because as the turns mount things get harder and harder and scoring opportunities get increasingly scarce.

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redmist1122
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by redmist1122 »

Agree...saw that big difference in points in just the first two games.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA

Juel
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Re: LardMag 2019 - Totensonntag PSC Questions

Post by Juel »

Is it possible to get the updated version of this PSC?

Yours Michael

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