Stalingrad Lists

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rim66
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by rim66 »

Hi Phil,

I've been doing some late 42 - mid 43 stuff, which I have sent to Rich, but the Pioneer bit - completely unapproved and unofficial is:

PIONEERS

German Pioneers are unusual in that they are so much more than engineers, being viewed as the pick of the 'infantry' troops, often selectively recruited from more experienced troops and regularly being used to hold portions of the front line, form the basis of a reserve force or as a specialist assault grouping. As such the following applies:

Mine Clearing Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Wire Clearing Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Demolition Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Goliath Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + 1 goliath.
Flamethrower Team: 1 Flamethrower and 2 SMG

Pioneers may never be Green (representing that they just haven't got the skills even if they have the 'badge') but may be one level higher than the supported troops e.g Green troops may have Regular but not Elite Pioneers.

Pioneer Platoons

A Pioneer Platoon is a real beast!

These good quality troops could be either Heer or Waffen SS from truck or half-track mounted units.

PLATOON FORCE RATING:

Regular: +4
Elite: +10

Should always be aggressive.

The Platoon comprises:

A Senior Leader, usually an SNCO armed with an SMG

3 Sections, each commanded by a Junior Leader armed with an SMG and with 3 command initiatives and comprising:

1 x LMG Team of 2 crew and 2 rifles.

1 Team of 9 other men. This can be split into:

Mine Clearing Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Wire Clearing Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Demolition Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + specialist equipment.
Goliath Team: 1 SMG, 2 Rifles + 1 goliath.
Flamethrower Team: 1 Flamethrower and 2 SMG
Assault Team: 4, 5 or 6 men armed with 3 charges and all may be SMG armed

LMG and Assault Teams may also act as Panzerknacker Teams, attacking any type of target on the orders of their Junior Leader.

Example: A Pioneer section could be split into an NCO, an LMG team, a flamethrower team and an assault team of 6!

This is my starter for 10 and to help Rich, but we'll have to see what he finally decides upon.

Richard M

aphillathehun
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by aphillathehun »

Hi Rim,

that looks interesting. I was just looking at the German Infantry handbook and it indicated that the platoon had an HQ with a leader and 6 guys and squads each had a leader and 14 men. But these guys were loaded, each squad had 3 lmgs, a flamethrower, and a PzB. I like the idea of choosing them as groups of specialists, although I might think that any of them could do wire clearing at any time.

Now I don't know if the 52 man complement was reduced by '42. Still trying to dig that out.

What about special rules? I was thinking about something like
"Blow and throw" - in Stalingrad they would use shaped charges to blow holes in walls and floors and then toss grenades in. Although from purely a game point of view, that seems like bad news for the poor guys on the receiving end.

rim66
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by rim66 »

My research is that they stayed as the large squads, but that is far from comprehensive with the sources I have at the moment.

The mix you mention seems to be a bespoke task org - one LMG per section was the standard issue but I reckon these guys would have been top scroungers and very flexible.

Agreed on the wire clearing - they should all be capable of blowing stuff up - no self respecting sapper would miss such an opportunity!!

I like the special rule idea as that is what they did to create access points and then followed though with pistol/SMG. I'll give some more thought to others.

Kind regards,

Richard M

Kustenjaeger
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:12 am
Location: Farnham, UK

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by Kustenjaeger »

Greetings

I'll have to have a look at this. I've got quite a few 20mm pioniere in my paint queue for Kursk.

Regards

Edward

aphillathehun
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by aphillathehun »

rim66 wrote:My research is that they stayed as the large squads, but that is far from comprehensive with the sources I have at the moment.

The mix you mention seems to be a bespoke task org - one LMG per section was the standard issue but I reckon these guys would have been top scroungers and very flexible.
I may have been reading it wrong. In one place it seems to indicate that each platoon has 9/3/3 but in another, when referring to the flamethrower specifically he asserts in text that each company had three. I'm probably confused about the tabulation.

That would make it handy to have a platoon with flamethrowe and PzB as support options. I think for these guys it would be correct to list the item as a support that anyone can use rather than a separate team as support - similar to what is done with PFs in the later German lists.

I don't know how reliable the source is (Buchner's German infantry handbook) but he has a tremendous amount of detail about the other equipment these guys hauled around - tools, barricade gear, explosives, mines, bridging stuff.


rim66 wrote: Agreed on the wire clearing - they should all be capable of blowing stuff up - no self respecting sapper would miss such an opportunity!!

I like the special rule idea as that is what they did to create access points and then followed though with pistol/SMG. I'll give some more thought to others.

Kind regards,

Richard M

aphillathehun
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by aphillathehun »

These might be all just for around the Barrikady in the assaults from November, but here's what I would propose as German supports there. It was pretty difficult for the Germans to get vehicles up and at this point it seems to be only full tracked ones. So earlier in Stalingrad some of the wheeled and halftrack supports should probably still be included.

List 1 as in Main Rules but no kubelwagen or schwimmwagen
List 2 as in Main Rules but no panzerschreck team
List 3 as in Main Rules but no vehicles
List 4 as in Main Rules but 37mm AA gun, no Pak 35 with stielgranat
List 5 only has Pz IIIJ
List 6 only has Pz IVF1, Stug IIIF
List 7 only has Pz IVF2
Nothing from List 8
List 9? only has sIG33B
Nothing from List 10

aphillathehun
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 am

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by aphillathehun »

Proposed list for Sturmschwadron 24.
(I don't know whether they still used the cavalry ranks or switched to regular ranks, so that might be wrong)

This is based on the writeup in Island of Fire and that is based, I believe, on surviving German orders.

Platoon Force Rating:?
Regulars
5 Dice

Platoon HQ
Oberwachtmeister, Sr Ldr, with machinepistol
Wachtmeister, Sr Ldr, with machinepistol
RGL (they had borrowed some of these from pioniers, not enough for one per platoon but 2 per company, I chose to give the platoon one, to be allocated)

Squads One to Three
Obergefreiter, Jr Ldr, with machinepistol

LMG Team
MG34
Three crew

Rifle Team
4 Riflemen
Concentration Charge
Smoke pots and smoke grenades

Support specific for this formation
List 3
Pak 36
List 5
Heavy MG Squad with Jr Leader and 2 MG34 teams with 3 crew each
Pionier Squad with Jr Leader and 2 flamethrower teams with 3 crew and 1 riflemen each (this squad was on loan and not to be busted up)

balamatt
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:17 pm

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by balamatt »

I'm keen to see this and the German counterpart list!

Oops, I just realised that it is there, above...

exchook
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:35 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by exchook »

I wonder if keeping in line with the German force lists you might consider the LMG Team as a LMG with 2 crew and 1 rifleman..

Tomm
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:58 pm

Re: Stalingrad Lists

Post by Tomm »

Did you ever do these up as nice pretty pdfs, Truscott?

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