Shock on Armoured Vehicle

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Foreign Ginger
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Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Foreign Ginger »

Hi there,

I've been playing CoC for several years now and consider myself a seasoned veteran of the game, however me and my friend recently had a gaming situation that hadn't happened before.

On p.63 under "Shock on Armoured Vehicles" it states that ""A vehicle firing has a ‐1 on
the roll to hit for each point of Shock.""
It does not mention specifically whether that's a machine gun or a tank gun firing an AT or HE round.

My friend had a vehicle with 1 shock on it and wanted to fire HE against my infantry. Under the rules, HE always hits on 4+ and there are no modifiers mentioned under the firing HE section. I was deducting from this that a tank would then require a 5+ to hit my infantry as it's got a point of shock, however my colleague disagreed, stating HE always hits on 4+. In addition, he stated the -1 shock modifier only applies to Armoured Vehicles shooting against other Armoured Vehicles.

This is the first time I encountered this situation in the years I've been playing CoC, since normally we just rally the shock and carry on as nothing happened.

I'd be interested to hear the ruling on this

Many thanks

Tim

Archdukek
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Archdukek »

Hi Tim,
Your friend is correct, the mention of a modifier for Shock on page 63 which you quote is referring back to the procedure outlined in 12.1 on page 55 which applies to firing on AFVs and in modified form to other vehicles (see 12.2). It contains a -1 modifier for any points of Shock. When firing HE against infantry targets all guns hit on 4+ and ignore shock on the firer since it’s the explosive nature of the shell which matters not the accuracy of the firer.

John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I disagree slightly.
The text on p 63 makes no reference to firing on a vehicle Ch 12.1
It simply says (my bold)
14.8 SHOCK ON ARMOURED VEHICLES
Shock affects vehicles in a similar way to that in
which it affects infantry, reducing movement and
the ability to fire effectively.
Shock on vehicles
reduces movement at the rate of one inch for
each point of Shock. A vehicle firing has a ‐1 on
the roll to hit for each point of Shock.

Now infantry firing do not deceive a 1 to hit they reduce their ROF by 1 for each 2 points of shock (p 62)
So firing MG or HE at infantry there should be some reduction for shock on the firing crew it says that in 14.8

Whilst I take Johns point that it is the explosive effect of HE the number of dice and the to hit numbers also reflect the closeness of the HE shell to the target and its explosive size relative to calibre etc.

So I think if the crew are shocked then making a -1 to hit with their tank MG is fair and as he have no other mechanism I would apply the same house rule we do with shocked infantry and AT guns firing at infantry - reduce the to hit roll on the dice but keep the number of dice the same.
you could I guess make it closer to infantry fire and reduce the number fo dice but keep the to hit roll the same
YMMV

Foreign Ginger
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Foreign Ginger »

Hi both,

It's interesting as me and my friend had the exact debate and brought the very same points. Glad to see we have the same "healthy" game mentality as you guys. In my opinion, there should be some negative connotation from having shock on the vehicle, while firing against infantry, to represent the sentence Rich had included in the rulebook: Shock affects vehicles in a similar way to that in
which it affects infantry, reducing movement and
the ability to fire effectively.
As the rules are written, currently there are no negative effects on shooting against infantry with Armoured Vehicles regardless of the amount of shock on the vehicle.

I like to play according to the rules written but would be interesting to hear what gamers have done when encountering this rule. Please feel free to post suggestions or carry on the debate.

Many thanks

Tim

Munin
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Munin »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:32 am
you could I guess make it closer to infantry fire and reduce the number of dice but keep the to hit roll the same
This is how I'd do it - drop [-1 dice / 2 Shock] when firing on infantry (with either an MG or with HE), apply the [-1 mod/Shock] when firing AT. AT and grenades are the only firing rolls in the game where the dice are added together rather treated separately (and both used a fixed 2D6 roll), so the modifier makes more sense in that context.

Archdukek
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Archdukek »

Hi Tim,
Glad we haven’t disappointed you in our discussion.

The rules for Vehicle Fire are set out in section 11.8.1. on page 53. That specifically says that vehicle MGs fire as infantry weapons which means they are subject to the modifiers for firing such weapons which includes losing 1 D6 per 2 points of Shock. On that I agree with TT and Munin.

That section then goes on to discuss firing the main gun with AP or HE. AP fire is dealt with in 12.1. However, 11.8.1 tells you how to use HE fire against an infantry target and makes no mention of any reduction for Shock so RAW there is none.

If you want to be led astray by TT and Munin to introduce a house rule, feel free. You could do a lot worse! :D

John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Been awhile since I lead anyone astray...😋
But since you ask:

My rationalisation is thst shock in the crew represents factors such as concussion, smoke inhalation and or wounded crew members.

All of which would have a detrimental effect on crew efficiency and thus accuracy and perhaps ROF might be adversely impacted.(stuffed). 😉

If MG fire from a vehicle is impacted and AP why not HE?

Apart from the lack if a specific rule mechanism for this there doesn't appear to be any reason why HE fire alone should be exempted?

So the matter now is how?

Perhaps some mathematical savant could crunch the numbers on the two methods to see the % difference it would make on say 3 different levels of HE 4,6 and 8?

Levi the Ox
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Levi the Ox »

Munin wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:40 pm
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:32 am
you could I guess make it closer to infantry fire and reduce the number of dice but keep the to hit roll the same
This is how I'd do it - drop [-1 dice / 2 Shock] when firing on infantry (with either an MG or with HE), apply the [-1 mod/Shock] when firing AT. AT and grenades are the only firing rolls in the game where the dice are added together rather treated separately (and both used a fixed 2D6 roll), so the modifier makes more sense in that context.
I do this as well.

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Seret
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Seret »

I'm not sure the low shock numbers you see on armoured vehicles are really going to mean you're adjusting firepower much.

If you go with -1 dice per 2 shock the same as infantry you're only ever going to drop one firepower dice, because crews bail out when they hit 4 shock.

Not sure it's really worth implementing a house rule to occasionally drop from 6d6 to 5d6, but I can see the rationale behind it.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Shock on Armoured Vehicle

Post by Truscott Trotter »

True thats prob why we went with -1 to hit on HE.

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