Soviet anti-mine doctrine

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Tomm
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Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by Tomm »

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stavka analysed the relative effects of going through minefields vs being funnelled into the prepared killing ground, and found that you lost fewer men charging through the minefield.

Has anyone houseruled on this?

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7dot62mm
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by 7dot62mm »

In CoC all minefields are marked and one cannot enter uncleared minefields at all. For my Winter War campaign I changed this. The campaign is here: http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ejuhola/7.62/ ... index.html and the rules are in the Optional Rules section R10.

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Baldie
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by Baldie »

Tomm wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:51 pm
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stavka analysed the relative effects of going through minefields vs being funnelled into the prepared killing ground, and found that you lost fewer men charging through the minefield.

Has anyone houseruled on this?

Good old Russians, I love to play em and realise it would have been dreadful to be one of em in the war.

Right lads here are the options

1. Right through the minefield.
2. Through the gaps in the wire covered by MMG

Not sounding promising boss anything else?

Well we have option 3

3. Stay here and take it from our own MMG

Convincing argument boss, sounds like we all run through the minefields also covered by MMG and try to stay a few steps behind each other.

Za Us
Interests

Getting slaughtered by a surprising amount of opponents.

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oozeboss
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Location: In the Shadow of the Temple of Mir-Anda, Sydney, Australia

Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by oozeboss »

Baldie wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:28 pm
Tomm wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:51 pm
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stavka analysed the relative effects of going through minefields vs being funnelled into the prepared killing ground, and found that you lost fewer men charging through the minefield.

Has anyone houseruled on this?

Good old Russians, I love to play em and realise it would have been dreadful to be one of em in the war.
True story: my uncle escaped as a teenager from his Ukrainian village (in Poland) eastwards, and ended up serving in the Red Army through the entire war as a front line infantryman (you can guess the odds of surviving the entire war. At the end of which, Stalin exiled him and his to Siberia, where he had a family and more adventures (which, while colorful, are far too much of a digression to relate here).

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I for one would love to hear the full story - time for your first book Richard?

CarlL
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by CarlL »

Tomm,
Its one to ask the likes of David Glantz and his researchers who have delved a lot into Russian military archives. There may be a university email or contact point? Or a publisher contact point?
In my limited reading I cannot recall such a study, but the USSR military did try to learn from battlefield analysis.
Though it could be (given they spent large part of war on defensive) that such a study would be about learning how to defend better against Germans.
So at Kursk the Russian front line soldiers were tasked with going out to lay (anti tank) mines on the surface in face of oncoming Elefants / Ferdinands and other tanks. My recall of what Glantz said about this tactic is poor, so I would have to go back to my books.
Laying the mines was to disable the giants who had poor visibility and once denuded of infantry support became more vulnerable, even in open, to losing track to mines. Of course the effect would also be to channel such vehicles away from suspected mines (on hearing explosions or seeing other vehicles disabled) and probably into prepared ATG killing zones.
I cant recall reading about Soviet use of A/P mines in WW2, but they may have lacked time after 1941 to prepare these defences, given the huge lengths of the Fronts involved and the fast moving nature of war till Kursk in 1943 and their loss of material and disrupted production as German armies and their allies adavanced swiftly through western Russia and Ukraine.
Soviet infantry wave attacks would be fateful against any prepared line of defence with or without minesfields and MGs fire.
Their lack of specialist equipment till near the end of the war in 1944 would hamper minefield clearance.
I am not sure if in the major attacks the Soviet intention was that the heavy artillery barrage would both 'clear' mines and wire obstacles as well as disrupt or destroy MG bunkers etc., so replacing the need for minefield clearance?
A subject matter that would make for further research and interested reading.
CarlL

CarlL
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by CarlL »

Part1

Tomm,
this website https://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educa ... vid-m-1942
gives Glantz's office address as 805 Forbes Rd., Carlisle, PA 17013, USA.
while this website lists his privately published work for sale see http://glantzbooks.com/ it is managed by Benjamin Hanna whom, I assume manages the following too

see part2
CarlL

CarlL
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by CarlL »

Part2
Tomm,
where you can find an email (intended for enquiries about purchases, you could use this to see if there is any specific writing about minefield doctrine?) see RZHEVBOOKS@gmail.com or Rzhev@aol.com or tel (717) 249-1161 not sure if 717 is the international dialling code.
while this website also lists his published work see http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/David_Glantz
and his retirement, and residency in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. So maybe a letter to his office address could lead to identifying some source, if none is clearly obvious in the listed works these websites include.
CarlL

Alexander Wood
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by Alexander Wood »

In real life minefields aren't often marked with convenient skull and crossbone signs.

So, you find yourself in a minefield what next?

Do you...
a. Sit there trying to dig up mines in an area covered by enemy fire that is thoroughly registered by them.
b. Try and go back over the mines you managed to avoid on the way out?
c. Sit there and do nothing?
d. Go forward because you'll actually take fewer casualties doing that?

For what it is worth 'd' was the choice of General Patton.

And yes they had mine detecting equipment. You need to Google, VIM-203 and VIM-210. They also used probes and sniffer dogs because the Germans used wooden and glass mines.

https://sovietarmorer.wordpress.com/201 ... -detector/

Alexander Wood
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Re: Soviet anti-mine doctrine

Post by Alexander Wood »

Glantz's Defensive Tactics at Kursk

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals ... lantz2.pdf

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