German Pioneers 1940

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jony663
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German Pioneers 1940

Post by jony663 »

Looking to have a platoon for 1940 and while I have the rifles needed, were does one find 15mm pioneers doing all of the typical pioneer actions like clearing mines or cutting wire?

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Baldie
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by Baldie »

Peter pig do a few and flames of war do some

The FOW stuff look more what you are after and fairly generic looking for the whole war
Interests

Getting slaughtered by a surprising amount of opponents.

Levi the Ox
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by Levi the Ox »

I have the Flames of War pioneer platoon. Nice figures, loaded down with kit. Lots of explosives of various types, a couple flamethrowers, one mine detector. Wire cutters would be really small at that scale, kneeling figures without weapons in their hands is a possibility.

NTM
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by NTM »

Old Glory probably do the most varied pack but my own are BF and Peter Pig

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gebhk
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by gebhk »

Hi

Alas the only type of mine detector available to the German army (or any army) in 1940 was the Mk 1 Homo sapiens mit bajonett und zer death vish. So any prone figure prodding the ground with a bayonet with a look of intense concentration and possibly with a brown stain on the pants is what you need. The prone position was advisable, for the usual reasons, especially if the mine-layers had the good sense to cover their minefield with snipers, but also made it easier to spot trip wires and similar unpleasantness.

Wire cutting was not strictly a pioneer job - every squad had some form of wire cutters - I presume in most armies. However they came in various sizes, some very visible even in 15mm. Incidentally, they weren't just used for cutting barbed wire, but also for making staples and nails out of wire as required. Planks with charges attached along their length was another, speedier, method of creating a pathway though barbed wire entanglements which also, conveniently, removed other nasties such as hand grenades left attached by their pull-rings to the wire.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Bangalore torpedoes were good for wire and a noisy way to remove mines. Used.in WW1 they would be good for 1940, am making some for my 1941 Japanese

andysyk
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by andysyk »

The engineering teams in COC make no sense. Any in combat engineering task required/requires heavy support parties. A wire cutting party tasked in combat would require at least 2 full sections as cover. And as said above by GEBHK the idea of infantry section being unable to defeat wire that three men with a pair of wirecutters cant is laughable. All infantry in WW2 carried wirecutters and you dont even need them to cross three roll obstacles.
The engineering rules seem to be based on specific tasks given for the isolation of one defensive point. Eg cuting wire to approach a pillbox but ignore the support assets that such teams employed.
Once it cant be breached quickly under fire then it would be out of game.
3 men teams running about willy nilly...fun for a game but not really representative of assault pioneer/ engineering.
Nobody is going to be manually mine clearing in the concept of a COC game.

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jony663
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by jony663 »

I think I will end up with Peter Pig. Thank you for your suggestions.

Richard
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by Richard »

Im'm sorry, but to say engineering makes no sense is absolutely not true. Yes, you do have to protect the, but how you do that is up to you, they player. This is not a text book exercise in how it SHOULD be done, but a situation where you need something done and some Engineers are available. Yes. Engineering teams are based on a specific task, because in the time frame of a game of Chain of Command that is what you would be faced with.

Of course, there is the issue her of abstraction to allow for things to be included in a game. You have an obstacle: it needs destroying. What the obstacle is is almost irrelevant. The fact that you need someone to do that specific task is also an abstraction. However we do not need to literally represent every aspect of what is happening. It seems to me to be perfectly legitimate to introduce the idea of a specialist team required to do a specialist job and the fact that this team needs protecting while they undertake that task.

We have actually had lots of very engineer heavy games which have been very literal interpretations of how combat demolitions were carried out, such as bunker busting in the Hurtgenwald. Worked perfectly well using the rules as written.

Contrarius
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Re: German Pioneers 1940

Post by Contrarius »

While we’ve got you here, Rich, just thought I’d throw my ha’penny’s worth at you about clearing mines and wire.

Must say I prefer the way field works are treated in Sharp Practice — a set job that needs to be done, and will take a fixed amount of work more or less to do. You can have a team dicing D6 for ten or more turns and never scoring the requisite 6 (or whatever it is) to clear a minefield. Then another team ambles along and clears it first throw, in the equivalent of 20 seconds.

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