Leader activating 'twice'?

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batesmotel34
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by batesmotel34 »

This seems to be contrary to what Rich said. The leader who moved with the unti activated on a 1 or 2 can't use any initiatives to activate that unti since it has already been activated but it says nothing about being unable to use command initiatives to activate untis that have not already been activated. That seems clear in Rich's wording. He may use CI for actions which are not activations on a unit that has already been activated.

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Captain Reid
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Captain Reid »

Might a simpler solution not be to simply say

No unit, including leaders may move more than once in the same phase, neither may they fire more than once per phase?

Seems to save ink. And exclamation marks!
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by siggian »

I think that gets at the essence of how Rich wants the game played.

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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Quackstheking »

Just trying to prove it's not as easy to write all-encompassing rules to cover little changes, which then have unintended consequences. I can see someone new to the game, looking at TT's suggestions saying that the JL cannot fire on a 3 because although it says he can fire on a 1 or 2 it doesn't for a 3 because he's probably too busy issuing orders.

I think Rich has made it clear how he wants it to be played and after 8 years this has only now really raised its head. It doesn't matter how you and your gaming buddies chose play it as long as you are happy with it and it works for you. I have always played it as Richard initially did in that the JL could only fire on a 3 not a 1 or 2 and that even if he moved he could still use a 3 as long as neither he nor any other team or squad activated a second time to fire or move twice.

I'm happy to wait for Rich to release V2 of the rules, especially as his workload is pretty high at the moment with lots of other projects that we Lardies are clamouring for.

See I resisted using an exclamation marks!

Oops

Don

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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Captain Reid »

Quackstheking wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 5:37 pm
Just trying to prove it's not as easy to write all-encompassing rules to cover little changes, which then have unintended consequences. I can see someone new to the game, looking at TT's suggestions saying that the JL cannot fire on a 3 because although it says he can fire on a 1 or 2 it doesn't for a 3 because he's probably too busy issuing orders.

I think Rich has made it clear how he wants it to be played and after 8 years this has only now really raised its head. It doesn't matter how you and your gaming buddies chose play it as long as you are happy with it and it works for you. I have always played it as Richard initially did in that the JL could only fire on a 3 not a 1 or 2 and that even if he moved he could still use a 3 as long as neither he nor any other team or squad activated a second time to fire or move twice.

I'm happy to wait for Rich to release V2 of the rules, especially as his workload is pretty high at the moment with lots of other projects that we Lardies are clamouring for.

See I resisted using an exclamation marks!

Oops

Don
I agree with that entirely. I think that the various TFL rules can only really been considered as a whole rather than analysed line by line. With that sort of thing, you're always going to get variation in interpretation (mind you, you seem to get that with most rules, so . . .) and it's best to do what you think reasonable.

Personally I've always played that an attached Leader can act with a Team on a 1, act with an attached Squad on a 2 and use his CIs on a 3 or 4 as appropriate and honestly can't see myself changing that, revised FAQ or no (unless playing with someone who feels strongly that that way is 'wrong'). It seems simplest to me that way but if other folk want to add some nuance that they feel adds depth, I don't mind.
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

Captain Reid wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 5:54 pm
Personally I've always played that an attached Leader can act with a Team on a 1, act with an attached Squad on a 2 and use his CIs on a 3 or 4 as appropriate and honestly can't see myself changing that, revised FAQ or no (unless playing with someone who feels strongly that that way is 'wrong'). It seems simplest to me that way but if other folk want to add some nuance that they feel adds depth, I don't mind.
That’s how I’ve played it. It was only when I came to write an article for the blog and was referencing specific rules that I noticed some possible anomalies. I was writing for new players and didn’t want to get something wrong so was looking for either clarity or consensus, but found there was none.

I don’t know about others but the first thing we do if something is not clear is say, ‘well what does the rule book say?’. If that doesn’t provide an answer then we have the ‘play the period’ discussion and come up with our own solution.

People have different opinions on how to interpret the rule book. I’ve had two different types of responses over the years.

The first is that it’s not a technical manual, look for Rich’s intent or see how it may be referred to earlier in the rule book (ie just because Rich doesn’t keep on repeating the rule doesn’t mean it doesn’t still apply).

The second is, Rich writes what he intends and so, do the rules say you can do that? If they don’t, then why do you think you can?

Depending on how you approach it, you can end up with two very different answers and that’s what we’ve seen in this discussion.

If you take the specific example of what you can do on a command roll of 1. The rule book says you can activate a single team. It makes no mention of attached leaders.

So one view is that this is intentional, the rules would have said if it includes the leader. It doesn’t, so you can’t.

The other view is that the rules allow a leader to participate in any move or fire on 2. Elsewhere it says an attached leader can participate in fire and movement without needing to expend a CI. So it seems logical that they could do so on a 1. That’s probably Rich’s intention so that’s how it should be played.

The other example is to do with the leader firing or moving on a 2. He cannot use his CI.

One interpretation is that as he has moved or fired, and as either of those constitutes an activation as per the rule book, then the leader has activated and can’t activate again this phase, because the rule book says a unit cannot activate twice.

The other view goes more to trying to understand the intention of the rule. That is that as the rules allow a leader to carry out non-activations that don’t prevent a squad activating later, then it should follow that even though the leader fired or moved on the 2 he is still free to activate and use his CI, he just can’t activate any unit twice. That seems to be Rich’s intent and why he makes reference to not using CI on a roll of 2. It seems consistent with the way leaders bring enhanced command options to the game.

Again, both answers are possible.

For me, I intend doing what we’ve always done, which to my mind seems consistent with the scope and intention of the rules.

An attached leader can participate with a team or squad on a 1 or 2. He may fire or move, but cannot use his CI. He is not considered to have activated. He may activate again later in the phase but cannot move or fire if he has already done so, nor may he activate a unit that has already been activated.
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DougM
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by DougM »

FWIW, two of us playing locally entirely from the book, we've always played a leader can move (I can't remember fire), then use his Ci as an activation.
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

Rich has said in this discussion the idea a leader could participate with a unit on a 2 and then later activate on a 3 is a key concept of CoC. The creative use of command dice and leaders to get the maximum happening on the table being at the heart of CoC’s command and control mechanics. This concept and application of the rules has come as a surprise to some, but obviously not to others like me or you.

It was one of the key points I wanted to make in my draft blog post - think creatively about how you can use activations and non-activations to get the most out of leaders, their units and a phase.

What came as more of a surprise was Rich weighing in and saying the leader could only move on the 2, not fire. He could only fire on a 3. That was a surprise because the rules say quite clearly:

  • On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad may be activated. An attached Leader may accompany them if they move or fire if they fire, but may not use his Command Initiative in this Phase.


Rich has explained that he had this rule in mind for those occasions when there was not a 3 in the command roll. It allowed the leader to remain an active member of his squad, even if he couldn’t use the extra commands that come with his command initiative. Rich has also admitted that he hasn’t looked at the rule book for a long time and developed the habit of only allowing the leader to fire when activated on a 3. However this was never added to the FAQ and as far as I know has not been expressed anywhere else as a rule change.

So between players interpreting the rules differently and Rich playing it one way himself that no one was aware of, there’s been a fair bit of confusion. What actually applies? Is it the rule book, which says move and fire? Or is it Rich’s current way of playing which says only a move is possible on a 2? Or do we just need some clarification that limits a leader to only one move/fire per phase regardless of whether he does it while attached using a 1 or 2, or when activating a unit as part of a 3 (or a 4, come to that).

Personally I think only allowing the leader to fire when activated on a 3 defeats some of Rich’s intent for allowing it on those occasions when a 3 is not available. The argument that the leader is too busy commanding to fire is valid. However unlike a 3 where the squad are benefiting from his command initiatives, if he cannot fire on a 2, you are neither gaining the benefit of his command or his participation in the fire.

At the risk of being flippant, on a 2 the best thing he would be able to do is make sure his men don’t run off and leave him behind. Unless his men move into close combat that is, when suddenly the leader bursts into life blasting away with his SMG and inspiring the men with command initiatives. If he’s good to fire then on an activation of 2, why not otherwise?
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Archie Bacon
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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Archie Bacon »

I've only ever played it straight from the rule book, never found any problems. On a '2' he's one of the chaps and does what they do. On a '3' his rank comes into play and he starts barking orders to get things done. Why try to make something simple so complicated? :roll:

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Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Seret »

Archie Bacon wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:48 pm
I've only ever played it straight from the rule book, never found any problems. On a '2' he's one of the chaps and does what they do. On a '3' his rank comes into play and he starts barking orders to get things done. Why try to make something simple so complicated? :roll:
My feelings exactly.

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