Leader activating 'twice'?

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

I'm putting together an article on activation for the blog (inspired by a suggestion by TT). One question has arisen on leader activation. The rule states:

When attached to a Unit, a Leader will move and fire with that unit at no additional cost in Command Initiative until he chooses to detach himself. A Leader detaches from a Unit by moving more than 4” away from it.

So consider this situation. A JL is within 4" of both LMG and rifle team. For 1CI he activates the LMG team and it moves forward. The leader is attached and moves with it at no cost (as above). On the completion of the move he is still within 4" of the rifle team and uses his next CI to have them fire. As per above he contributes his fire as part of the attack. The leader has moved and fired in the same phase. This appears consistent with the rules but am I missing something where it says he can't do that?

There is a rule that states:

No Leader or Unit may be activated more than once in any single Phase; however, they may be activated any number of times during a Turn.

I understand this to mean I couldn't use a 3 to activate a JL, carry out some activity and then use another 3 to activate him again in the same phase, but it could also be interpreted to mean he cannot do anything else, however that partly contradicts the rule above about what he can do when attached.

Here is another situation. A JL is activated and uses both CIs to remove shock from his squad. Later in the phase, using a command dice of 2 the squad then activates and fires. Assuming the rule above, the leader can contribute his fire in this attack, even though he activated earlier in the phase? This is a bit of a grey area because rallying of shock is not an activation for the unit, but in order to do it the leader must be activated himself. So while the unit has not been activated, the leader had to have been to remove the shock.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7519
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Had a long thread or two about this recently - I am in the minority on here that thinks you cannot activate him twice
Will dig out my reasoning based on the rules as I read them based on p 18
On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad
may be activated. An attached Leader may
accompany them if they move or fire if they fire,
but may not use his Command Initiative in this
Phase.


https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... =35&t=9538
https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 35&t=12440

OK in your last example MLB again I reckon if he moves or fires he is activated twice :roll:

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

Bloody hell, missed that thread but I’ve just read through it.

So if I unbundle my original post, there are two things. Firstly it would appear Rich’s answer means the junior leader can rally shock on a 3 and if subsequently the squad activates on a 2 and moves the leader gets to tag along because leaving him on his own seems a bit odd. In other words this movement accompanying the squad is an exception to the rule limiting a second activation. While this seems simple enough, it begs the question, what if the squad’s move takes it into close combat, presumably the leader participates, contributing his CI and SMG to the combat? That’s hardly just tagging along. If he can do that then why can’t he fire with the squad if that’s what they choose to do? Strikes me the rule should be all or nothing. He either participates with the squad in whatever they do or he does not (can’t move or fire with them).

That still leaves my first question. The leader only activates once but uses one CI to move a team and accompanies them. He uses his next CI to order the other team to fire and as he’s attached he joins in with that fire. All done as part of a single activation using a 3 and his two CI.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

Thinking about this some more and in reference to 4.4:

On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad may be activated. An attached Leader may accompany them if they move or fire if they fire, but may not use his Command Initiative in this Phase.

If you look at this in the order it is presented in the rules we see a gradual build up in the means of command and control. We go from 1 to activate a team, building up to 4 and the many more options available to a senior leader.

If you read the rule for a roll of 2 in that context then it appears to be saying that a 2 is a step up from a roll of 1, it allows the two teams of a squad to activate, but only in a very limited way, both teams and their junior leader act as a single group of men, doing the same thing. In this rule we should look at the junior leader as just another man in the squad for command and control purposes. It is partly what separates a roll of 2 from a roll of 3. A roll of 2 treats the squad and leader as just a group of ten or so men all doing the same thing. I often see activation on a 2 as the equivalent of a squad continuing to follow its last order (keep on moving towards the farm, or keep on engaging the enemy in the firefight). In this case, even though the entire squad activates, it is in this limited capacity without the advantages given by the junior leader using his CI. Which makes me wonder if it was more Rich’s intention to say “...but may not use his Command Initiative in this Activation.” He might be activated, but not in the capacity of a junior leader.

The reason that is differentiated is because as we move up the scale of command dice we then get to 3. Now and only now can the junior leader activate and use his CI. He can’t use his CI on a 2 because that’s a ‘lesser’ result on the command dice roll.

4.5.3 says:
Some commands given by Leaders are not considered activations and do not prevent a Unit being activated at another point in the same Phase.

So sequencing is important. A junior leader activated as part of a roll of 2 is done for the phase, however a junior leader activated on a 3 can rally off shock and then his squad can activate later on a 2. The junior leader participates in whatever they do as if he’s just another man in the squad, no CI, no other abilities, he does what they do because he’s part of the squad. If he’s not being activated as a junior leader, does this constitute a second activation, or he simply another man in the squad for activation purposes? I’m inclined to interpret that as the latter.

After all there’s no reason the junior leader couldn’t be rallying shock while doing something else. It could be just as effective to rally men by standing up and firing his personal weapon at the enemy, or leading them forward with a stirring appeal to their courage. Surely not every case of “rallying” is a gentle pep talk with the men?
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7519
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Activated is activated in my book - no difference between activated and activated as a JL IMHO YMMV

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 902
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by MLB »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:53 am
Activated is activated in my book - no difference between activated and activated as a JL IMHO YMMV
Yep, can see the case for that too.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7519
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Mark I lost 11 FM in 5 phases with the loss of only 2 teams and an SL last game I have more problems than this one! 😋

Neil Todd
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:59 pm

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Neil Todd »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:17 am
Mark I lost 11 FM in 5 phases with the loss of only 2 teams and an SL last game I have more problems than this one! 😋
You poor bugger TT, it could have been worse I reckon 13 could have happened if the gods truly wanted to be nasty ;)

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7519
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Wouldnt mind but my opponent only fired at one team all game and they were killed by the death of 1000 cuts.

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4095
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Leader activating 'twice'?

Post by Seret »

The important bit to understand is that there are some things that are activations and some things that aren't. Shooting and moving are activations, using a CI to remove a point of shock isn't.

So if your leader has moved or shot along with the unit when it moves or shoots, then he's had his activation for that phase. He can still do any of the stuff which is listed in 4.5.3 as "not an activation". So you could, for example activate a squad with a 2 and have them move (JL tags along). You then use a 3 on the JL and he has them chuck two grenades.

Post Reply