Polish Black Brigade 1939

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jony663
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by jony663 »

Thank you, this is great. Can I ask what you use for the source.
gebhk wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:37 pm
Since I have the bumph to hand, here is the rest of the squadron:

Squadron HQ

CO and staff
CO (rotmistrz - cavalry equivalent of kapitan - captain); driver (lance corp) with Polski Fiat 508 Lazik; batman (EM)
Observer (lance corporal); Observer (EM); Despatch rider (corp) on solo motorcycle (most likely Sokol 600)

Scout section
Section leader (corp); Driver (lance corp) with 7-seater Polski Fiat 518 Lazik; 4 scouts (EM)

3 Line platoons as above


Machine gun platoon

HQ
Section leader (sergeant), Driver (EM) with Praga RV or Polski Fiat 621 truck; Driver's assistant (EM)

1st machine gun
Team leader (corp); gunner (lance corp) with ckm wz 30; loader (EM); 2 ammunition numbers (EM); assistant (EM)

2nd Machine gun
As 1st

[It is possible that by September 1939, (in the 24 Lancers, at least) the section received a second truck, but with no extra personnel]

Admin squad
Wachmistrz-szef (squadron sergeant-major, senior sergeant); admin/weapons and gas NCO (plutonowy); driver with Praga RV or Polski Fiat 621 truck (lance corp), driver's assistant (EM)
Equipment NCO - junior artisan (plutonowy); senior cook (lance corp); cook (EM); bootmaker (EM); tailor (EM); driver(lance corp) with Praga RV or Polski Fiat 621 with wz 31 (sam) kitchen trailer; driver's assistant (EM)

[On balance it seems likely that the trucks used by the line and MG platoons were Praga RV, while the admin section made do with the older Polski Fiat 621.]

Weapons
The CO was equipped with his own pistol and binoculars; lance corp observer likely had (in addition to his carbine and bayonet) binoculars and signalling pistol; EM observer may have had binoculars; scout section leader had a machine pistol (best guess: Suomi) and bayonet; squadron sergeant major, machine gun platoon leader, MG team leaders, gunners and loaders had pistols; medical NCOs and stretcher bearers had bayonets only. Otherwise a carbine and bayonet.

Hope this is of some use to someone.

gebhk
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by gebhk »

No one source.
The foundation is General Staff order L.dz 3696/Mob. Org.38 Organizacja 10 Brygady Kawalerii na stopie wojennej - Pulk kawalerii 10 Brygady Kawalerii (Organisation of 10 Cavalry Brigade on a war footing - cavalry regiment of the 10 Cavalry Brigade) issued on 23.12.1938; transcribed by KM Gaj (10. Brygada Kawalerii w 1939 roku - organizacja wojenna wielkiej jednostki motorowej; Napoleon, Oswiecim 2013).
However this organisation was modified by a number of corrections in 1939, some but not all of which were put into effect before war commenced. Furthermore, there are a number of witness accounts and formal histories such as 24 Pulk Ulanow - zarys historii 1920-1947 (24 Lancer Regiment - historical outline 1920-1947) (Komornicki S. Regimental Society of the 24 Lancer Regiment; London 1976) which provide insight into the actual rather than theoretical organisation and numbers.

gebhk
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by gebhk »

I too have the Skirmish Campaigns offering. While great fun, its OdeBs, it appears, emanated more from someone's imagination(s) than from history. For amusement, years ago, I went through the booklet and replaced them with something more recognisable for both sides albeit I did nothing to alter the bizarre collections of seemingly random squads making up the various forces.

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jony663
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by jony663 »

gebhk wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:03 pm
No one source.
The foundation is General Staff order L.dz 3696/Mob. Org.38 Organizacja 10 Brygady Kawalerii na stopie wojennej - Pulk kawalerii 10 Brygady Kawalerii (Organisation of 10 Cavalry Brigade on a war footing - cavalry regiment of the 10 Cavalry Brigade) issued on 23.12.1938; transcribed by KM Gaj (10. Brygada Kawalerii w 1939 roku - organizacja wojenna wielkiej jednostki motorowej; Napoleon, Oswiecim 2013).
However this organisation was modified by a number of corrections in 1939, some but not all of which were put into effect before war commenced. Furthermore, there are a number of witness accounts and formal histories such as 24 Pulk Ulanow - zarys historii 1920-1947 (24 Lancer Regiment - historical outline 1920-1947) (Komornicki S. Regimental Society of the 24 Lancer Regiment; London 1976) which provide insight into the actual rather than theoretical organisation and numbers.
I am assuming most were not translated into English? I came to have an interest in the Polish army in WWII, after finding out after my maternal grandmother passed, that a great uncle I think fought with the 1st Polish Armoured division. Unfortunately all that knew anything have now left us.

gebhk
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by gebhk »

That is indeed the case. However, A number of my colleagues are working hard to launch an English-language version of the Struktury website on Polish TOE's.

Alas with regard to the passing of a generation. 10-15 years ago, it was still possible to ask witnesses about petty details that never make it into the literature, but are vital to accurate recreations whether of organisations or in model form.... No more.

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7dot62mm
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by 7dot62mm »

gebhk wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:47 pm
I too have the Skirmish Campaigns offering. While great fun, its OdeBs, it appears, emanated more from someone's imagination(s) than from history. For amusement, years ago, I went through the booklet and replaced them with something more recognisable for both sides albeit I did nothing to alter the bizarre collections of seemingly random squads making up the various forces.
This is actually my experience of nearly ALL Skirmish Campaigns products, even in the Winter War supplement I helped out with... . I'm modifying them so that I always have one full infantry platoon on both sides and then have them supported by these seemingly random units :) The authors have either not known or cared what the units were, and have used what models they had. Which is why every campaign has four Panzer II ausf Cs, but only two Panzer IV ausf Es :)

If your modified version of the Black Brigade scenario book TOEs is available I'd be most interested in them.

gebhk
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by gebhk »

Hmmmm

I am moderately confident that i have it....somewhere. Ie in the digital attic aka the box of random data sticks, discs and exterior hard-drives. I should probably look at it first because research has marched on since then. I also have Piotr Sadwski's Jordanow 1939 now - describing the first 3 days of the fighting of the 10 Cavalry Brigade and a masterwork in historical writing.

I digress! Remind me if you havn't heard after a week or so.

gebhk
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by gebhk »

Incidentally, for the modelling nuts amongst us (who? me?):

(1) 33 Panzer Abteilung (of the 4th Light Division) was almost certainly the only Panzer unit to sport the outlined cross during the Polish campaign. While it appears to have a black fill on some photos this is a hoptical hillusion. The crosses were simply painted in white partial outline on the panzer grey base colour.
(2) The main transport vehicle for the motorised infantry of the 2nd Panzer division and the motorised cavalry of the 4th Light division was the very characteristic Stey 640 (used in lieu of Kfz 70s) at the usual rate of 2 per squad.

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7dot62mm
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by 7dot62mm »

gebhk wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:59 am

Remind me if you havn't heard after a week or so.
Umm... this is not top priority for me so please take your time. All my Poles are still unpainted etc.

Contrarius
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Re: Polish Black Brigade 1939

Post by Contrarius »

I put gebhk's list thru the Coculator, and the results look rather alarming.

In my quick calculation, which I've titled "CoCking up the Black Brigade", I come to 53 points, which gives a Force Rating of –6.

When Elite (with a generous 6 dice) they'd have 81pts or a Force Rating of –1. Strictly though, I don't think they'd justify this status. Would be entirely happy, though, to see them with a Red Dice in the support list for 2 points, on par with equivalent French mobile units.

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