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Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:05 pm
by Truscott Trotter
Morning chaps,
A question arose in out last game of Many Rivers to Cross.
The dastardly Germans (me) had cunningly brought along an armoured car - an Sdkfz 222 to be precise.

Their French opponents had failed to bring any AT weapons and their MG fire proved ineffective in driving it off - so in desperation my opponent wanted to fire his VB rifle grenades at it.

Now leaving aside the fact it may or may not have its anti-grenade screens closed we treated it as an open topped vehicle.

The following questions arose:
1.) Can you land a grenade in the open top same as the hand thrown variety?
2.) If yes to 1.) then what calculation for difficulty.
3.) If no to 1.) above what other effect could it have on a AFV?
4.) In later periods there were specialised AT grenades for rifle dischargers - should these have an AT strike value and if so what? Am thinking 2 or 3?

In the end we went with it rolls as per MG for a chance to drive it off as we were not convinced there was a realistic chance of landing it in the open top or that it could penetrate the armour.

Interested to hear reasoned opinions on this one - as Seret has sometimes mentioned they did make an awful lot of them and I recently read an account of a US trooper driving off a tank by firing several rifle grenades at it in 1945.

Cheers
TT

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:45 am
by Levi the Ox
I think it'd be reasonable to use the rules for Light Mortars against Open-Topped Vehicles, in the last paragraph of 9.4 on page 43 of the core rulebook. They hit on a 2d6 roll of 12, inflicting damage as per a hand grenade that gets inside an AFV. The French V.B. team functions like a battery of light mortars anyway.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:10 am
by Truscott Trotter
Thanks Levi had forgotten the light mortar rule.
So firing 4 VB with 2 shots each gives you 8 chances of 1 in 36
So approx 22% chance of a hit?
Or would it be one roll per weapon?

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:25 am
by Peter
1 shot per weapon per phase. If it lands inside, then it's a grenade in an enclosed space.

Peter

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:23 pm
by sackatatties
I'd need to check (interpret as wild speculation) but some of the AT grenades were intended for AT use were they not (such as the US M9)? Maybe 3 AP if it hits?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161JT0WRVf4

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallar ... rms_id=906

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:39 pm
by sackatatties

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:00 pm
by Levi the Ox
That makes sense. Something like that would probably fire as a standard IAT weapon, albeit with a lower strike value. I'd be interested to know how common/effective they were in actual use.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:07 pm
by Truscott Trotter
Common, very.
Effective not so much.

The thing is when you are in a AFV and something explodes agaknst the outside, even if it doesn't penetrate you cannot be sure the next one won't.

AP 3 sounds about right.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:05 pm
by batesmotel34
AT rifle grenades should be higher AP than an AT rifle but less accurate than an AT rifle or a dedicated infantry AT weapon. Maybe fire like the panzerfaust 60 and a penetration of 5?

Chris

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:47 pm
by Eclaireur
During the fighting for Saint Lo the German's counter-attacked men of the 116th Infantry, 29th Infantry Division with some StuGs. A company of the 116th, barley at platoon strength, had its only bazooka team killed by one of the vehicles:

"Sgt Harold Petersen, who had assumed command after all six of the company's officers had become casualties during the past week, loaded his M1 with anti-tank grenades and hit the leviathan with six straight shots. The vehicle was not destroyed, but the driver beat a hasty retreat towards Saint Lo" Balkoski, Beyond the Beachhead

So not a great penetrative effect - but quite a good morale one!
EC