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Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:41 pm
by siggian
Rifle AT grenades should be a significant downgrade from bazookas, 'shreks, fausts, and even PIATs. They are a step above satchel charges, sticky bombs, and molotov cocktails, but only because you don't have to be nearly as close to the tank to attack it.

If they were any good, there would have been no real need to develop those IAT weapons I mentioned above.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:55 pm
by Truscott Trotter
The problems with them are hitting and hitting square.

They are small HEAT warheads from what I have read and need to hit close to 90 deg to have a chance to penertrate. Although any net zero hits can cause a retreat action on the AFV.

I am tempted to have them hit like a panzerfaust 30 with AP of 3 for early ones and like a panzerfaust 60 and AP 4 for later ones.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:01 am
by DougM
If they were that good, there would have been no need for Panzerfausts, sorry, I just don't see them being very effective. They fell out of favour very quickly when real IAT became available. For a specialised piece of kit, like the PIAT, bulky and not particularly effective, to be preferred, says they were actually pretty rubbish.

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:06 am
by Truscott Trotter
What good Doug?
I am proposing AT of 3/4 Panzerfausts are AT 11
Also they were rather inaccurate at anything but close range hence my proposed restrictions of 9/18" Vs Bazookas/Schrecks ranger of 48"

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:25 am
by poiter50
So really a shock on crew effect only and cumulative?
Eclaireur wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:47 pm
During the fighting for Saint Lo the German's counter-attacked men of the 116th Infantry, 29th Infantry Division with some StuGs. A company of the 116th, barley at platoon strength, had its only bazooka team killed by one of the vehicles:

"Sgt Harold Petersen, who had assumed command after all six of the company's officers had become casualties during the past week, loaded his M1 with anti-tank grenades and hit the leviathan with six straight shots. The vehicle was not destroyed, but the driver beat a hasty retreat towards Saint Lo" Balkoski, Beyond the Beachhead

So not a great penetrative effect - but quite a good morale one!
EC

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:28 am
by Truscott Trotter
That happens in the rules even with net zero hits.

My original questjon was should there be a chance on penetration value as well ie should they have an AP value at all if so what ?

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:30 am
by 7dot62mm
For what it is worth I houseruled the Schiessbecher as follows in our Kursk 1.1 (K11) and 2 campaigns (K2):

18.8 RIFLE GRENADES

In a valiant effort to further wargamer awareness of the use of rifle grenades in WWII we've included German rifle grenades in K2 even though the Lardies are desperately trying to ignore the whole subject. There is no doubt that these weapons were used at Kursk, after all the Germans produced some 19.4 million rifle grenades just in 1943!

There are two types of rifle grenade launchers in K2. Any regular rifleman may be converted into a rifle grenadier by purchasing the Rifle Grenade Launcher support option. Additionally, a specialist Rifle Grenadier Team can also be purhased, this is two men and one Granatbüchse 39 (GrB 39) , a converted anti-tank rifle.

Rifle grenades may only be fired by a Rifle Grenadier Team or when an individual rifle man is commanded by a Leader using a Command Initiative. An activated Leader who is attached to his men or within command range of them may, therefore, use one Command Initiative to instruct troops to get a Unit which is not Tactical or on Overwatch to fire a single rifle grenade [4.5.3, K11].

Rifle grenades are slow to load and thus a given grenadier is unable to fire a grenade on consecutive German activations [K11]. This does not apply to the Rifle Grenadier Team who can fire on every activation as long as the Team has two members and no Shock [K11]. Rifle grenades are considered to be plentiful (a box of 30 grenades weighed 11 kg) but a grenadier will run out of the type of grenade being used just then if he rolls two 1s on his to hit dice [K11].

A Pinned Unit may not use any of its rifle grenades [14.5]. A pinned Unit's rifle grenadier may still use his rifle to shoot bullets at 50% reduction to its firing dice [K11].


18.8.1. G.Sprgr HE Frag grenade

The impact-detonated G.Sprgr HE Frag grenade has Firepower 2 [Table Four Master Arsenal Table] and reduces cover by one level when calculating the effect of any hits [9.1.5].

The G.Sprgr HE Frag grenade can be fired in indirect manner 18-60" as Effective range [Table Four Master Arsenal Table] and 61-79" as Long Range (2d6, as Effective but at -1 to Hit) and 80-103" as Extreme Range (1d6, as Effective but at -1 to Hit) [K11]. All indirect fire must be done within reasonable LoS of the firer [K11].

The G.Sprgr HE Frag grenade can also be shot as a direct fire munition at ranges of 0"-12" (0-15“ using the Granatbüchse 39) as Close Range and 13-24" as Effective Range.

G.Sprgr HE Frag grenades fired against open topped or softskin vehicles will be treated as a single hand grenade. However, they may only engage a target which is in direct line of sight, rolling 2D6 and hitting on a result of 12. If a hit is achieved roll 3D6. Each 4, 5 or 6 counts as one net hit on the vehicle damage table. Roll as normal on the relevant table in Section 12, Fire Against Vehicles) [9.2.1].
When fired directly the grenade can be targeted at medium-sized apertures such as doorways or windows but then only 1d6 is rolled To Hit and the target is considered Elite [K11]. Also small apertures such as bunker firing apertures can be targeted within 6" and the target hit on a 6 [K11]. If a hit is scored the grenade causes a 3d6 firepower attack and target has no cover [K11].

The rifle grenade must be able to penetrate its target in order to cause damage (i.e. a grenade hitting the top of a concrete bunker will cause no harm to its occupants) [K11].


18.8.2. Gewehr-Panzergranate 30 & 40 HEAT Rifle Grenades

The impact-detonated G.Panzergranate grenades have Firepower 2 but do not reduce cover by one level when calculating the effect of any hits [K11].

The rifle grenade can be fired in indirect manner 18-60" as Effective range [Table Four Master Arsenal Table] and 61-79" as Long Range (2d6, as Effective but at -1 to Hit) and 80-103" as Extreme Range (1d6, as Effective but at -1 to Hit) [K11]. All indirect fire must be done within reasonable LoS of the firer [K11].

The rifle grenade can also be shot as a direct fire munition at ranges of 0"-12" (0-15“ using the Granatbüchse 39) as Close Range and 13-24" as Effective Range. Due to their slow muzzle velocity rifle grenades targeted at vehicles always substract 1 from their roll to hit [K11].
HEAT rifle grenades can be used to target vehicles using indirect fire. However, they may only engage a target which is in direct line of sight, rolling 2D6 and hitting on a result of 11 or 12 [K11]. A 12 does not signify hitting a weak spot [K11].

When fired directly the grenade can be targeted at medium-sized apertures such as doorways or windows but then only 1d6 is rolled To Hit and the target is considered Elite [K11]. Also small apertures such as bunker firing apertures can be targeted within 6" and the target hit on a 6 [K11]. If a hit is scored the grenade causes a 3d6 firepower attack and target has no cover [K11].

The rifle grenade must be able to penetrate its target in order to cause damage (i.e. a grenade hitting the top of a concrete bunker will cause no harm to its occupants) [K11].

Re: Rifle Grenades Vs Armour

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:49 pm
by hedgehobbit
I researched AT rifle grenades a few years ago and this is the chart I came up with. Only US and German, at the moment. They have a decent range, but accuracy drops off dramatically (+2 for each colored range band). For example, the US trained with their AT rifle grenades out to 75 yards but trained with their bazookas out to 300 yards.

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