Question about removing shock

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Seret wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:50 am
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:21 am
I agree in that allowing one order and not the other doesn't make sense.
As it is clear you cannot use the 2 first then the 3 I see no reason to allow it the other way round either.
Well there's nothing in the rules to stop it.

What I suspect might be the case here is that the intention of the top of p17 is that if a JL adds their fire or movement to a squad activating on a 2, they can't use their CIs to activate anything else, but that they're still free to do "things which aren't activations". But the rules aren't really clear on whether that's the intent or not.
Ok not trying to be obtuse (for a change) just trying to get the logic trail clear so in this paragraph
On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad
may be activated. An attached Leader may
accompany them if they move or fire if they fire,
but may not use his Command Initiative in this
Phase
.


You are saying the prohibition on JL's using their command initiative later in the phase ONLY applies if they move or shoot but not if they do something else?
The only something else they can do on a 2 is adopt a tactical stance without moving?

Alternatively if the section activating on a 2 is firing or moving but the JL chooses not to fire or move he can then be activated later in the phase?
So this part of activation p 17
All members of the Section or Team must do the
same thing when activated together.

Means the JL is NOT part of the section otherwise when they activate on a 2 he WOULD have to do the same as the rest of the men?

Have I got you correct?

JimLeCat
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by JimLeCat »

The intention is simple, and it's related to a similar idea in IABSM. A leader can only be activated once per phase, like a unit. So, if a junior leader acts with his section on a 2, then he can't be separately activated on a 3 to use his CI. The two things a section can do on a 2 are move and fire, so if he does either of those with them then he has used his activation - he has no attention to spare on being a leader (beyond what is subsumed into the section activation). Likewise, once the section has been activated on a 2, he can't activate them using his CI, so all he can do are the non-activation things.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Jim

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Truscott Trotter »

No Jim I disagree
It says Not spend CI not Not spend CI on activation's
That is quite clear

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Seret
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

I agree with Jim. I think you're being a bit too literal in your reading of this one TT.

gcoops
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by gcoops »

I'm with TT on this one. The rules as written seem very clear.

My understanding is you use a 2 or a 3 to activate the section and you can only do so the once in a phase. You cant use a 2 then the 3 or vice versa.

When using the 2, you are activating the section of which the JL is still a part.

To remove shock and still activate the section to move/fire you either activate on a 3 and the JL uses one command point to remove shock and the other to order move/fire.

A senior leader on a 4 can remove shock and then the JL can activate on a 3 or the section can then move/fire on a 2.

Gcoops

GavinP
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by GavinP »

I'm with Seret. To take the rules to mean you cannot give your lads a pep talk before moving the section to the next hedge is in my view being obtuse. If you're burning two dice and no unit is being activated twice I see no reason that it shouldn't be the case. Would you allow a 3 and then a 2 to remove shock and then have the section fire? This is not really any different IMO.

It's also remarkable when people say they play the RAW yet refer to the FAQ all the time. As much as I love the rules, we must admit they are not written in the most precise language and that some areas of the rules have since been changed or clarified by the author. If TTs interpretation is truly what Rich had in mind I'd be astonished.

Jiefu
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Jiefu »

Hello.

As I read RAW, on page 15, section 4.2 using the command dice, table 1, things are clear. It says on a 2 "activate or deploy a section or squad with its junior leader", then on a 3 it says "activate or deploy one junior leader with his section, squad or team"

So in either case using a 2 or 3 both leader and squad are activated, by choosing not to use a command initiative to tell unit what to do doesn't mean you didn't activate them, hence you can't use a 2 and a 3 on same squad.

No doubt others will see different, but that is what I read.

GT

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Emilio
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Emilio »

If a squad is activated with its leader on a 2, the squad activates to move or shoot. So the leader moves or shoot too. Then, he can´t use his CI. And as he has been activated, he can't be activated again on a 3. That´s how I read it.

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Seret
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

Jiefu wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:42 am
So in either case using a 2 or 3 both leader and squad are activated
Not quite. On a 2 the squad is activated. On a 3 the leader is activated. He can then use CIs to do stuff, which can include activating the squad. However, he can also use those CIs to do things which are not activations, which then leaves the squad (or its teams) free to be activated using other command dice, or by other leaders.

In short:
1 or 2 activates a team/section and the leader can optionally activate with them to move or fire only.
3 or 4 activates a leader but not the unit they're attached to.

Jiefu
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Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Jiefu »

RAW in Table 1 on page 15 is quite specific saying on a roll of 3 the junior leader is activated with his squad or section.

The is a specific exception made in BK around the one man turret rule.

On page 19, it is in clear contradiction to page 15, under unit activations, where it says a junior or senior leader can activate a unit, however if table 1 on page 15 is correct, then to have automatically activated to section or squad when you used the 3.

Nevertheless, your choice to play the rules anyway you like to. I doubt this is going to be a universally adopted interpretation from either side tho, especially since there is contradiction in the rules.

Watching Tfl and beasts of war videos, playing RAW isn't a big emphasis in the gaming. In particular in sharp practice, the use of a CI to direct fire is not played as written.

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