Question about removing shock

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

Morgan
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:39 pm

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Morgan »

I agree entirely with Don.

This paragraph (top of page 17 in the PDF) under 4.4 ...
"On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad may be activated. An attached Leader may accompany them if they move or fire if they fire, but may not use his Command Initiative in this Phase."
... might be read as saying that the Leader cannot then use his CIs in the rest of the phase.

However, I would suggest that this is then explicitly overridden by later paragraphs:
"4.5.3 COMMANDS WHICH ARE NOT ACTIVATIONS
Some commands given by Leaders are not considered activations and do not prevent a Unit being activated at another point in the same Phase."

It explicitly says that the Unit (which includes the JL) can activate at another point in the same phase.
Use the Consolidated Arsenal! It's here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... E/htmlview

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:36 am
Nope first paragraph p 17
That just says that he can't use his initiatives if he joins in with them on the 2. If you've got a 3 he can use that to remove the shock, then you use the 2 to activate the section. But the leader won't be able to add his fire to theirs, as he's too busy.

To be honest it's a slightly obscure rule and easily overlooked. And the game doesn't break if you do.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7600
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Truscott Trotter »

P 17
On a Command Dice roll of 2, a Section or Squad
may be activated. An attached Leader may
accompany them if they move or fire if they fire,
but may not use his Command Initiative in this
Phase.


So it is clear you cannot use your 2 then the 3 on the same section , yes?
So what about 3 then 2 cunning yes?

Not really also p 17
No Leader or Unit may be activated more than
once in any single Phase;
however, they may be
activated any number of times during a Turn.


So when you activate the section on a 2 after the JL is activated on the 3 are you not activating him also?
is he not part of the section?
Is he a separate team?

There is of course this para on p 17 about that.
All members of the Section or Team must do the
same thing when activated together. (See
Section 4.5.6, Unit Actions Defined.)


Seret is proposing that you could play it that way.
Lets look at what that would mean in practice
OK yes he may not shoot when you use the 2
But also he may not move - so he stays behind when the rest bug out - with a target on his forehead and maybe out of command range next phase.
and more to the OP's point when the rest of the section go tactical on the 2 he stands upright waving his arms and shouting abuse at the enemy?

Personally I prefer to play RAW and also I believe is in the spirit of the rules
Leaders, teams or sections may only be activated once per phase

PS. The part in
4.5.3 COMMANDS WHICH ARE NOT ACTIVATIONS
Some commands given by Leaders are not
considered activations and do not prevent a Unit
being activated at another point in the same
Phase.


IMO is there to allow you to do 2 things:
1.) Remove shock from a team and then move or shoot it. This can be done simply by spending 1 CI on the team to remove shock and 1 to activate this can be from your sections JL, or
2.) Allow a SL to do the same as 1.) or in combo with your JL

Feel free to play it your way if you feel it is more realistic or it fixes a game play problem, but I do not think the rules intend the use of the 3 and the 2 on the same section and in the same phase.

Happy for Rich to pop along and say the complete opposite :lol:

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:33 pm
So it is clear you cannot use your 2 then the 3 on the same section , yes?
Nope.

What the para at the top of p17 says to me is:
  • If you activate the section on a 2 and the JL joins in moving or firing, he can't do anything else that turn
  • If you activate the section on a 2 and the JL doesn't join in, he's under no such restriction and can use his CIs for whatever he likes.
In practice JLs don't normally fire their weapons, so this mostly comes up when moving.

Personally I don't think we bother enforcing this rule. It seems a bit fiddly, and the way the rules are intended to work seems to be that you can do as many things from 4.5.3 in addition to activating, and the order you do so doesn't matter. So we would allow a leader to remove shock on a 3 then move with a squad, and vice versa. Allowing it one way but not the other doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7600
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I agree in that allowing one order and not the other doesn't make sense.
As it is clear you cannot use the 2 first then the 3 I see no reason to allow it the other way round either.

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:21 am
I agree in that allowing one order and not the other doesn't make sense.
As it is clear you cannot use the 2 first then the 3 I see no reason to allow it the other way round either.
Well there's nothing in the rules to stop it.

What I suspect might be the case here is that the intention of the top of p17 is that if a JL adds their fire or movement to a squad activating on a 2, they can't use their CIs to activate anything else, but that they're still free to do "things which aren't activations". But the rules aren't really clear on whether that's the intent or not.

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 7600
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Yes there are rules to stop it and I quoted both of them.
It says not use CI it does say not use CI for certain things.

User avatar
Seret
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:45 pm
Location: Kent UK
Contact:

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Seret »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:01 am
Yes there are rules to stop it and I quoted both of them.
It says not use CI it does say not use CI for certain things.
What it says is that when the JL moves or fires on the 2, he can't then use his CIs that turn. If he doesn't move or fire on the 2, then what is stopping him from activating on a 3? Nothing as far as I can see.

User avatar
Greg Bradfield
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by Greg Bradfield »

I agree with TT. On a 2 you activate a section and it's JL. Here the JL can't use his CI's. On a 3 you activate a JL and his section and here the JL can use his CI's. If the JL chooses to use all his CI's on rallying the unit which is not activated does not mean you can activate the section on a 2 or vice a versa. Simple just see it as you can not spend more than 1 command dice per unit per phase.

siggian
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:22 am
Location: Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada
Contact:

Re: Question about removing shock

Post by siggian »

I've always played it that if you spend a 3 on the JL and he spends both CIs to remove shock (or any other non-activation actions), and then you spend a 2 to activate the section, if the section moves, the JL moves with them for free. Seems simpler to me and fits with how the rules work elsewhere. It's definitely not going to break the system because it is expensive as it uses 2 (or more) precious command dice.

Post Reply