Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

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redmist1122
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Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by redmist1122 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:40 am

Please forgive me on this basic question as we don't do this much in our games.

Having watched a video earlier by Travis, he had thrown a grenade into the back of a Marder III. He rolled 3D6, which had no effect to the crew let alone the vehicle. After a brief chat and looking through the main rules in section 9.2.1....especially the example on page 41, it would appear the hand grenade effect is directed to vehicle damage, with possible crew hits, as oppose to the crew directly, with possible vehicular damage.

Is this correct or am I missing a hidden nugget in the rules somewhere else?

Thanks for your insights and clarification.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:12 am

I have not seen the video but the first problem s trying to get it in in the first place
Rule 9.1 says
For a smaller aperture or more difficult target,
such as an upper storey window, open topped
vehicle or over a high obstacle, subtract 4 from
the total rolled.
For a very small aperture, such as an open tank
turret or firing slit on a bunker, subtract 6 from
the total rolled.


If the Marder is moving I would make it -6 otherwise -4

Then assuming you hit then 9.2.1 is pretty clear - the hit is on the vehicle damage table (my bold)
Each 4, 5 or 6 counts as one net hit on the vehicle
damage table. Roll as normal in the relevant
table in Section 12, Fire Against Vehicles).


it even has an example in the green box below this rule! :P

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Travh20
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by Travh20 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:48 am

That’s the way we played it. Nothing in the crew, just 4,5 or six is a hit on the table. Not very effective. And I did make it in even with the -4. We were only four inches away though.
Chain of Command/Sharp Practice video battle reports and more at https://www.youtube.com/user/travh20

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:52 am

To be absolutely clear each 4,5 or 6 is a hit - so you can get 0-3 hits with 3 dice - ie one roll on 3 net hits not 3 rolls on 1 net hit :D

gebhk
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by gebhk » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:43 am

Ho hum, I suspect, Redmist, that you are hinting this is an anomaly. If so I can't help thinking you are right. While a HG exploding inside an armoured vehicle is unlikely to cause critical damage (unless you ignite ammo or some such) but the effects through concussion alone will be pretty nasty for the crew. Personally I would use common sense in agreement with your opponents. Rules that cater for all eventualities are impossible.

Incidentally this brings me to the effects of gear such as AT rifles and early war AT guns in the 25-37mm range. They too rarely destroyed armoured vehicles - their effect was primarily against the crew. The experience of 1939 showed that tanks seemingly knocked out of action, sat there for a while and then suddenly 'came back to life' and (usually) trundled off back where they came from. In other words, the wounded/dead driver was replaced and (perhaps, after a period of playing dead so that the attention of enemy gunners would be directed elsewhere) the otherwise virtually undamaged vehicle was able to go about its business.

It is, I am sure, not a coincidence that the organisations of armoured units of many countries included spare crews. In the majority of cases, when a tank was knocked out, all that needed doing was to remove the wounded and bodies, mop blood out of the footwell and, if time allowed, patch up the hole in the armour to prevent unpleasant draughts. In line with this, increasingly current practice among historians of 1939 is to count dead and wounded crew when talking of losses in armoured units rather than trying to count 'destroyed' tanks. The only way to be certain of a kill in 1939 was to be 'master of the battlefield' at the end of the engagement and let your engineers/sappers/pioneers loose on the sitting ducks with large amounts of high explosive.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:59 am

Whilst I agree common sense would say thw crew Rw lot squishier than the vehicle I think it was a case of KISS and use the damge table that is already there.

The end effect is a potentially knocked out AFV whether my dead /fleeung crew or my ammo exploding (not that easy I admit)

TabletopGenerals
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by TabletopGenerals » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:18 pm

Are there for that reason equal hits and saves? I mean so there can be at least some effect.

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Seret
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by Seret » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:31 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:59 am
The end effect is a potentially knocked out AFV whether my dead /fleeung crew or my ammo exploding (not that easy I admit)
You've got a 1 in 8 chance of knocking it out, but much more likely is 1 or 2 points of shock. Realistically you want a couple of grenades going in there, or you want the vehicle to already have some shock on it.

gebhk
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by gebhk » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:59 pm

I guess my thoughts were that a single handgrenade going off in the confines a steel coffin meant that the crew would be pretty much guaranteed to become hors de combat for the foreseeable future.

In the early days when the cooperation between panzers and schutzen wasn't all that it is often cracked up to be by historians, tanks were sometimes mounted by the opponent's lower classes. A pistol bullet to the dome of the first inquisitive guy who wanted to see what was going on outside followed by one grenade down the hatch did the job of putting the tank out of action nicely in pretty much every case.

TT - totally agree that it matters little in the short run whether the tank is put out of action because the crew or the vehicle itself is not working any more. However it does make a difference if you have spare crew on hand in the slightly less short to long term. I've done a few games based on this exercise and tank/people salvage generally. But then again I do enjoy some very odd games.

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redmist1122
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Re: Thrown Hand Grenade into the back of Marder III

Post by redmist1122 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:29 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:52 am
To be absolutely clear each 4,5 or 6 is a hit - so you can get 0-3 hits with 3 dice - ie one roll on 3 net hits not 3 rolls on 1 net hit :D
A lot of good insight info guys.

Back to process per the game rules, I get what is required to hit. So in Travis's scenario, I believe he got one hit...so he would then roll on the One Net Hit table w/a D6 and apply the results. If he were to get 3 hits, then roll a D6 on the Three Net Hit table.
Greg P.
Tucson, AZ, USA

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