Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

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rim66
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by rim66 »

I've been doing similar work for Le Coq Indochine and Red Dawn and I think the effect of arty and air is on the buildup of forces so something along the lines of the Prelim barrage. Effectively, air and arty keep the '2nd echelon' at distance to allow the first to be dealt with.

I have also been in discussion with Rich about an 'official' Vietnam CoC following on from Indo China, although it seems a lot of work has been done on this already.

Kind regards,

Richard/Monty Lardo

c0cky30
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by c0cky30 »

Had a re look at the previous posts again and the rules as had a slight epiphany thanks to Arlequín regarding the scope of the game involved.

Looking at giving the following a try. Once again any thoughts or comments welcomed.

US National Characteristics

Excellent Communications
US may spend any Chain of Command pips accrued to increase any rolls on their command dice during a phase. The value of any dice may not be increased beyond 4.

Chain of Command Dice
US may use a Chain of command dice to call in an air/artillery strike. This works similar to the Russian WRATH OF THE GODS rule however it is in effect till the end of the current turn that the chain of command dice is played.

Medic rules
Medics are included as part of a US platoon and may be activated to remove 1 point of shock from a unit in each phase.

Mortars
A US force may use any of their units LOS for the purposes of sighting a target for Mortar fire. A US platoon leader may use all his command activations to call in a Mortar strike instead of a FO. The aiming point for a mortar barrage must be on an enemy unit.


ANZAC National Characteristics
Cautious patrolling, maximum security
To reflect this emphasis, an ANZAC team may move with 2D6 and then assume a Tactical stance when activated by a Leader using two Command Initiatives.

Chain of Command Dice
ANZACS may use a Chain of command dice to call in an air/artillery strike. This works similar to the Russian WRATH OF THE GODS rule however it is in effect till the end of the current turn that the chain of command dice is played.

Medic rules
Medics are included as part of a ANZAC platoon and may be activated to remove 1 point of shock from a unit in each phase.

Mortars
An ANZAC force may use any of their units LOS for the purposes of sighting a target for Mortar fire. An ANZAC platoon leader may use all his command activations to call in a Mortar strike instead of a FO. The aiming point for a mortar barrage must be on an enemy unit.

NVA National Characteristics

NVA Patrol Markers use 14” as both their move distance and the distance from a friendly Patrol Marker within which they must remain. Other than this additional 2” they operate as normal Patrol Markers. When deploying from a Jump‐Off Point, regular NVA troops must deploy within 9” of that point and elite troops within 12”.

Chain of Command Dice
Use Dice to remove 1 unit within 12” of a jump off point off table to be redeployed at a later stage. Unit being removed cannot currently be pinned or broken. Units shock markers are removed when unit is removed.

Sappers treated as DIEHARDS.

VC
Use irregular troop rules per Spanish Civil war supplement however treat a Small Unit as 1-3 Figures, A medium unit as 4-6 figures and a Large Unit as 7+ figures.

VC Patrol Markers use 14” as both their move distance and the distance from a friendly Patrol Marker within which they must remain. Other than this additional 2” they operate as normal Patrol Markers. When deploying from a Jump‐Off Point, Green VC troops must deploy within 6” of that point and regular troops within 9”.

Centralised Leadership
To reflect this doctrinal embracement of the importance of central command, the VC Platoon Leader is rated as a Junior Leader, although he is able to influence any troops within the Platoon.

Chain of Command Dice
Use Dice to remove 1 unit within 12” of a jump off point off table to be redeployed at a later stage. Unit cannot be pinned or broken. Units shock markers are removed when unit is removed.
Use a dice to spring a Booby trap. May be used to interupt an enemy unit that is moving. Attack is 2D6 and unit is always counted as in the open. Unit is also pinned until the end of the turn.

VC do not roll on the Bad Things Happen table for a loss of jump off point.

c0cky30
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by c0cky30 »

At this stage it looks like we'll give the above rules a crack using ANZACS v NVA. If the game goes ahead I'll try and post up an AAR.

AndyG
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Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:30 pm

Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by AndyG »

We have tried a couple of games with V.C. v Australians. We used the rules as written using some options from the WW2 Japanese lists such as the jungle fighters charecteristic and a ruse as a support option for the VC. The main issue we had was when a sections Ak 47s the sheer amount of dice we had the throw . 7 AK47s and a RPD = 27 with the consequent high casualty rate which seemed extreme even for modern. We are thinking of modifying fire from automatic weapons rules so a player chooses between 1 dice with re rolls for 1s to represent aimed shots or consort controlled bursts or all 3 dice for full automatic. If 3 dice are thrown its only the third kill that actually kills, the others are converted to shock representing the pinning effect of such fire power. I'll post again when we have tried it.

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín »

Sorry guys, I managed to miss the responses and questions. :?

@Seret - The lethal distance was taken from a U.S. range guide. The 'safety distance' given was 1,000m iirc. Circular error was from a report on T-28 'dive' attacks pre-'65, so I would expect them to a bit tighter than an attack run with anything faster, so yes I could see deviations of 100m+ being entirely possible, particularly at above ground fire distances.

Either way, I was trying to demonstrate that modern CAS is not the thing for CoC, given that most tables are a mere 240 x 160 m/yds. Likewise artillery... as in WWII, barrages and strikes should be considered preliminary to the game itself. 'The Wrath of the Gods' seems a fair representation of the heavy support available to the US and ANZACS though.

The Wrath of the Gods rule as written seems ideal for the ARVN too (at least pre-'65), who liked to prep an area with artillery, if only to warn the VC they were on the way so they could clear out.

Ok... the other stuff...

Improved communications would be relevant for units armed with squad/team headsets. The U.S. had them, but apparently did not use them in Vietnam. With only radios for the PL and APL on the company net, I can't see any advantage unless calling for support fire.

PLs and APLs as FOs seems legit, although the company mortar platoon had its own FOs in any case... presuming it was present on the op of course and not deployed at a firebase.

As I said before, I'm not keen on national characteristics, particularly given the range of experience across any given nation. While the ANZACS appear to be generally better on the whole, even they must have had a learning curve when a unit was freshly rotated-in. I'm not well read on them though, so take that on advisement.

Thinking logically though, with 12 month tours and the draft, it would be difficult for a U.S. unit to achieve experience overall. I might be inclined to lower the general level of U.S. squads, but have their squad leaders as 'superior JLs' to represent the experienced guys having the stripes.

'Short-timers' were reluctant to take chances (pretty much like Allied troops were in the closing months of WWII), so preferred to let arty and air do the heavy work when possible. 'Experienced' units might therefore require additional pips to motivate them, although otherwise they would act as you would expect.

I would also imagine U.S. APLs would generally be better than the PLs realistically speaking, as butter bars generally served 12 month tours like the EM. Senior NCOs on the other hand would almost certainly have more than one tour under their belts.

The VC and NVA on the other hand were in for the duration, so might expect a potentially higher 'morale' rating. VC Local Forces acted as a 'school' for Main Force units, so typically the MF units would generally be of reasonable quality... except when they had taken a beating and drafted in whatever was available to make the numbers up.

How to represent all the above is of course the question. :?

c0cky30
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by c0cky30 »

Thanks for the responses guys. At this stage I'll drop the Aussie Cautious patrolling rule and the NVA Patrol Markers rule and give the NVA a +2 to their force morale roll.

AndyG I have the same concerns regarding firepower/combat advantages for Assault rifles in this period.

For tonights game I think we will treat assault guns and SLR's as semi-automatic ie rerolling 1s.

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín »

Given that terrain is not as open as WWII and there is a lot of undergrowth you can't represent on table without making it difficult to play, why not reduce the number of dice across the board to simulate the difficulty of acquiring a target?

Semi-Autos stay at 1 but no longer re-roll 1s. ARs drop to 2/1 dice but re-roll 1s. SMGs to 3/1 dice. There are not actually any magazine-fed LMGs (the RPD was belt-fed from a cannister) and the RPK, M14A1 and FN-FALO match 'automatic rifle' more than they do LMG. LMGs can therefore drop to 6 or even 4 dice.

c0cky30
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by c0cky30 »

We ended up playing Assault rifles and SLRs as semi automatic with everything else as per the rules. It worked really well. Looking at how many shots we would have had using the regular chain of command dice rules for Assault rifles blokes would have evaporated so I'm glad we made the change.

I like your suggestions Arlequín.

A few questions
1. How would you treat Assault rifles in combat as the current rules give 2d6 extra per assault rifle in combat? This places the ANZACS at a huge disadvantage and sees side with assault rifles against each other both virtually disappear given the amount of dice thrown.
2. How do you treat runners radio men etc in HQ. Do you leave them out completely or allow them on table and if so how do they deploy/activate etc?

I have included some shots of the table before deployment. I'll try to knock up an AAR report over the next few days. We treated the majority of the table as light cover where ever you see grassed areas. The shaved areas near village buildings are treated as open and the long grass and jungle areas as really heavy terrain light cover.

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín »

Simply put there should not be a major disadvantage at all. A trained rifleman will put out an aimed round every second with an SLR, while a guy firing a burst from an AK has only the first round out as 'aimed', the rest just go in the same direction. Someone who knows what they are doing with an AK fires short aimed bursts, someone who doesn't wastes a lot of rounds to no effect.

Where there is a difference is that those subsequent rounds in the burst might hit if the first misses and failing that, if the guy knows what he is doing, they will all at least come close enough to the target to make them hit the dirt or take cover. That being said, you can achieve almost the same 'suppressive effect' with an SLR and sometimes shoot through the cover itself too.

Simply put the amount of dice the 'assault rifle' gets does not match the casualties taken in real fire-fights - hence my suggesting reducing them.

When you read something like the accounts of Ia Drang, where 'an intense fire-fight broke out', yet after 5 minutes or so 'no casualties had been taken', or over 25 minutes 'five men were killed' and then compare these to the same thing in CoC where everyone is dead... then you might consider that too many dice are being rolled.

Radio Operators should be right with the PL and APL, effectively turning them into two two-man teams. Lose your R/Os and you can't call in support fire. The VC and NVA targeted both leaders and R/Os, who stuck out like a sore thumb as they mostly moved around together. Runners are not really covered by the rules, but were present in WWII too, so they are additional riflemen effectively.

Very nice looking table btw. :)

c0cky30
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by c0cky30 »

Brief AAR of lasts nights NAM game.

Click on the link for some period feel - http://www.live365.com/stations/wanderlust2k3

We used the following rules:

1. Assault rifles and SLRs were treated as Semi-Automatic rifles for the game.
2. Bloopers were treated as Lt Mortars.

All other weaponry treated as per Chain of Command rules.

ANZACS
Chain of Command Dice
ANZACS may use a Chain of command dice to call in an air/artillery strike. This works similar to the Russian WRATH OF THE GODS rule however it is in effect till the end of the current turn that the chain of command dice is played.

Medic rules
Medics may be activated to remove 1 point of shock from a unit in each phase.

Mortars
An ANZAC force may use any of their units LOS for the purposes of sighting a target for Mortar fire. An ANZAC platoon leader may use all his command activations to call in a Mortar strike instead of a FO. The aiming point for a mortar barrage must be on an enemy unit.

NVA
NVA National Characteristics

For the Cause
An NVA force adds 2 to their morale roll.

Chain of Command Dice
Use Dice to remove 1 unit within 12” of a jump off point off table to be redeployed at a later stage. Unit being removed cannot currently be pinned or broken. Units shock markers are removed when unit is removed.

Sappers treated as DIEHARDS.


I use playing cards which are shuffled to determine terrain sectors for table variety. The following is the resultant table.

(NB: Click on the pictures for the full view)
Apologies in advance, figures are only partly painted at this point.

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PATROL MISSION
We gave the ANZACs a Medic and Mortars.
NVA took a sniper and Mortars.

NVA rolled 6 for Morale = 11 (Me)
ANZACs rolled a 4 = 9 (Micko)

Patrol Phase. ANZACs using blue poker chips NVA black.

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Jump off points. My first mistake was placing my jump off points too far back.

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NVA had the first turn and I hesitated and waited to see what the Aussies did. This turns out to be a mistake as the ANZACs get the next 2 turns in a row and press hard.

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NVA sniper deploys and takes a shot but misses.

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A unit of scouts is sent up the left flank towards the pigs.

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NVA squad deploys to give the Aussies a taste.

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The Aussies deploy another squad to their rear and take a shot at the NVA squad.

The scouts run down the road in an attempt to shut down a jump off point as the ANZACs have committed to their left flank.

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NVA and ANZACs trade shots near the village.

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A firefight ensues on the NVA right flank in the Jungle.

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Whilst on the far left an advancing NVA squad is shot to pieces and breaks.

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The Aussies are occupying the village and have called in their Mortars.

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The NVA scouts approach the left hand jump off point kill one ANZAC and assault the other only to be routed in the process.

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With the NVA morale dropping to 3 due to the routing of a squad and team as well as Junior leader casualties (good to roll sixes when you don't want them) and mortars about to rain down the NVA are ordered on suicide assaults.

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Which end the way they should with dead NVA everywhere.

With the NVA morale broken those still alive slip away into the jungle leaving the ANZACs to secure the village and call in the transport.

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A very enjoyable game. I think I was so caught up making sure that the setting worked that I forgot to focus on better tactical decisions.

Funnily enough no Mortar barrage was actually landed by either side with the ANZACs only managing to call in a range in attempt before the NVA panicked and in an attempt to "grab the belt" were soundly "beaten by the strap".

Afterthoughts re: period and rules etc.

Looking before the game and also considering in game the amount of dice that would be thrown using the existing CoC rules most of the squads shot at would have disappeared so I am certain an adjustment is definitely required. We went the conservative rout treating all SLR's and Assault rifles as Semi-Auto for the purposes of experimentation. Since the game I have been looking at alternatives which may be more in line. Given we played the majority of the table as light cover this certainly helps however after talking to an ex army mate I think the rates of fire can probably be kept the same as CoC but changing assault rifles as shooting the next target up so when shooting an Assault rifle at Veterans treat it as shooting at elites ie 5+ to hit at close range and 6 to hit at effective range.

I took Arliquins advice on things such as cutting National characteristics etc
and I think it was well founded. The unit structures and most importantly the terrain gives this period of fighting its flavour.

As to the Air strike rules we added it could have proved to be extremely useful as I had delayed my deployment some what and the use of a Chain of Command dice to drop the Airstrike would have really hampered my later deployment.

The NVA force is an interesting force to use. Due to the squads being treated as one unit each it means that they are tough but really lack some flexibility and have to be coordinated as a whole. This makes for a very nice difference between them and the Free World forces and inherently builds in the differences in characteristics .

Happy to field any further questions or suggestions.

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