Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

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siggian
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by siggian » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:30 pm

Arlequin, I have no problem you taking my suggestion to its logical extreme.

My off-the-cuff suggestion certainly would bend the rules (and perhaps even break them at the edges) and might require further rules to try and counterbalance some of the more extreme results. For example, you might have to give teams who are evacuating a wounded soldier a free move every friendly phase. But then you might want to have another rule that says if there is fire within 12" that team does not get the free move but the helpers can do other things if you spend a command dice on them. And so it goes.

I'm a rule tinkerer by nature, but I fully admit that frequently RAW is the way to go.

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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by agent_pumpkin » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:28 pm

Peter wrote:I can't quantify this, but I feel that especially from Vietnam onwards, the Western (at least) attitude to casualties (particularly wounded) has been quite different from that of the World Wars. It may have been that there are (usually) less well defined front lines, and perhaps a perception that the enemy are less civilised [but then there is the Eastern Front, and the Pacific to take account of). At least one operation in Afghanistan was halted by a single casualty.
If this is accepted, then a change to the rules in some form might well be required to model it.

Peter
I suggest a Force Morale roll for loss whenever an individual is critically wounded. This would involve using the critically wounded rule from CDS of course.

Possibly a use of the CoC dice to force a recent casualty to be critical instead and if the US player cant get a medic or medevac to him then a loss of Force Morale would occur.
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Peter » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:20 pm

Helicopter-borne casualty evacuation could be an interesting scenario. I'm not sure it was often done within the timescales of a game of CoC.

Peter

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:26 pm

siggian wrote:Arlequin, I have no problem you taking my suggestion to its logical extreme.
I was sort of hoping you might. It's good to find people willing to discuss rather than argue... but that's something I'm coming to appreciate about this forum in general. Thanks! :)
Peter wrote:Helicopter-borne casualty evacuation could be an interesting scenario. I'm not sure it was often done within the timescales of a game of CoC.
Peter


I think I'd approach it the same way, in fact you could break down a 'three day patrol' (or even a single day, whatever) into a mini-campaign, with each stage being a game in its own right.

Something like: Game 1 'Hot Insertion', Game 2 'Booby Traps', Game 3 'Search and Destroy' and so on. Some time in the series, you would have the 'Casevac' scenario where it fits in to the run of games and finally the 'Extraction' (under fire presumably). Obviously like any campaign the preceding games would set the tone for the ones following.
agent_pumpkin wrote: I suggest a Force Morale roll for loss whenever an individual is critically wounded. This would involve using the critically wounded rule from CDS of course.

Possibly a use of the CoC dice to force a recent casualty to be critical instead and if the US player cant get a medic or medevac to him then a loss of Force Morale would occur.
I do think that Peter is right regarding the mental 'effect of casualties' in Vietnam and more recently, and while I wouldn't want to include additional rules to assess what those casualties actually are, adjusting 'shock' and 'force morale' when casualties are taken, as you suggest, seems the right way to deal with it in the game.

I think that if I was in a fire-fight I would recognise that someone had 'stopped-one' and gone down, regardless of its actual effect... so an instant morale effect on me and anyone else in sight. It would be after it's all over before I actually found out how bad the wound was (or not), by which time it's too late to effect my in-game morale for that engagement.

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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by whoa mohamed » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:44 pm

I think the way to go is to examine The actual process of casualty evacuation in this period.
We know that there was supposed to be a medic with every platoon.
We know that that medic performed Triage to determine who needed to be evacuated and in what order.
we Know that it was the Platoon leader who made the decision based on the info provided by his Medic His Mission ,Terrain and sitrep on what type of method was best suited to evacuate those casualties.
Based on that decision He (plt Ldr)choose the terrain to facilitate that method, IE Doc you and jones and his squad get your CCP set up by that hard top we crossed a minute ago. Or Doc you and jones and his people get me a PZ set up in that clearing we crossed a while ago have Jones listen up for me to let you know when they are inbound ,Oh and Doc authenticate purple ok.
I kind of think what a great alternate use of a COC die. You the commander can use a COC die to temp convert 1 JOP of your choice to a Casualty collection point or choose to lose one and place a CCP in its place from which to evacuate your wounded and dead. One type lasts for the current turn and may be used once per turn as long As you have a COC die the other lasts for the game but costs you a JOP and any troops evacuated would not count against you for force morale But if that CCP is captured it should cost alot against your force morale (Like losing a senior Ldr or combat element).

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Peabody
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Peabody » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:27 am

Very good ideas, but I would be hesitant to tie them to a CoC Die... Those just don't happen often enough, so casevac might ironically become a low priority.

My gut feeling would be to add a Dustoff call to the support lists, despite the apparent skewing of the time-scale this might imply.

If the call was made, a Jump Off Point or a designated LZ would become a wounded way station, or CCP, and if that remains secure until the turn ends, then the Dustoff comes in and starts the casevac.
* Start loading wounded; simple activate and move stuff.
* Activate the Dustoff as a Junior Leader and fly it out of there.
This process would take a while and would require coordination and expend several command dice. Sounds about right. Add a 'radio/coms check' to initiate the procedure and all the elements are there.

Consider also allowing the OpFor some 'Hot LZ' support options, to disrupt insertions as well as extractions.

Perhaps the use of LZ's needs more exploration. Are these a limited form of JOP, or simply a pre-designated spot where slicks can touch down to load/unload squads and teams? Maybe we could buy an LZ as a support option.
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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:50 am

The idea of creating a CCP for your WIAs on a JOP, defending it to stop the VC from making them KIA, is A-OK. ;)

I agree with Peabody that folk might be reluctant to use a CoC dice run for Casevac, but the idea in principle works for me. No new rules are really required, just use your normal activation dice to move your casualties to the CCP and some form of end-game adjustment for those you've 'saved'.

The player thus has the option whether to attempt to reduce his casualties in this way, disregard them altogether, or a bit of both, to suit the situation and scenario.

Despite the general 'no one gets left behind' ethic and the principle that casualties would get evac'd, even today it doesn't always happen though and sometimes the LZ is too hot, or it's the weather, or the just the plain futility of possibly losing additional men to maybe save one, or to recover his body.

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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by whoa mohamed » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:36 pm

In that vein could we not allow the VC/NLF player to use activation to fall back on a jump off point, and reemerge at another to simulate thier tunnel systems and ability to break contact.

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:12 pm

Wow, there are a lot of good ideas here!

My own thought was perhaps medics could be vaguely similar to Senior Leaders. By this I mean they could be left in the rear to create an aid-station/casualty-collection-point or deployed on the board. In order to make the deploy/don't deploy choice a bit harder, perhaps medics could be given an additional ability or two while on the board. For example, when activated they could remove one shock from the section/team they are attached to. Additionally, maybe a dedicated aid-station could be one support point, while a medic would be two?

A thought I had in regards to dustoffs was to try and keep it simple. After a critical wound, the next time a Senior Leader is activated they need to spend all of their command initiative calling in the dustoff. The actual arrival of the helicopter (or whether it's even available or possible to extract) is basically irrelevant in the time the game takes place. The important thing is that the Senior leader needs to take time and focus that could be used for giving orders in order to try and get the wounded out of there.

As for how critical wounds are decided, in 'Charlie Don't Surf' a critical wound is suffered when the 'Critical Wound' card is drawn immediately after a FWF suffers one or more fatalities. Depending on the number of cards still in the deck, this means there's roughly somewhere between a 1 in 30 and a 1 in 2 chance of the 'Critical Wound' card coming up. Since CoC doesn't use cards, maybe something like: "after a FWF takes one or more fatalities roll a D12, if it's a 1 then one of those fatalities was actually a critical wound." Or if we want to stick with D6s, roll 2D6 and on a 2 or 3 a critical wound occurs.

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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:41 am

Okay, now I'm starting to think about support lists.

Here's a preliminary list of US Army vehicles for inclusion, please let me know if there's anything I missed:

M113
M113 with ACAV equipment
Jeep (M151 MUTT)
M106 (I think this might be too large a mortar to really have a place on the table)
M125
M577 (This is the 'command center' M113 variant, I'm not sure this should be on the table since it has few to no armaments and I get the impression really wasn't a frontline vehicle)
M132 "Zippo"
V-100 Commando armored car
M42 Duster
M163 VADS
Gun Truck
M728 CEV engineer vehicle
M48 Patton
M551 Sheridan



If we're looking at the timeframe of the American involvement in the war does it make sense for the NVA/PAVN to have any kind of armor at their disposal? My general impression was that North Vietnamese tanks/vehicles didn't really come into play until the US/ANZAC/ROK/etc had left the country.

That said, there were a few battles with US forces that had NVA armor involved and at least (only?) one instance of tank on tank (at Ben Het). Side fact: at least according to Wikipedia apparently an NVA/PAVN PT-76 had the dubious honor of being the first tank to be destroyed in combat with a TOW missle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT-76#Firs ... OW_missile).

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