Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:34 am

Oh sure, you can't average out something like that, but it does put it into perspective. Some units, dependent on when ('67-'69 saw more casualties in each year, than the combined totals of '65-66 or '70-72 combined, with neither coming even close to the 16k suffered in '68 alone) and where they were situated and how they were routinely deployed, probably saw almost continuous action and indeed went way past typical 'body counts'.

The 'mechanism of injury' is interesting though... the U.S. suffered 40k killed 'in ground combat', with only 18k of those by gunshot. Of the wounded-survived, only around 35% were gunshot victims.

It would be interesting (to me at any rate) to see how this compares with wargames in general (WWII wounded-survived were roughly 28% gunshot by comparison, so near enough the same). The figures don't distinguish between explosion casualties or sniper fire suffered on patrol and those casualties received during the fire-fights which would form the typical game however, so determining whether the gun or grenade (or mortar etc) was the primary casualty-inflicter would be difficult.

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:57 am

The ARVN list has been updated with the info I got from 'Fire and Movement' by Jac Weller. The ARVN Osprey book indicates that the ARVN platoon had 3 squads with one BAR each. So these two sources aren't in agreement. For now I'm going with Weller since his info seems to come from having visited and met with people during the mid-60s. The Osprey doesn't cite a source for the organization, but Rottman (the author) seems credible enough to not dismiss what he says.

Oh well, more research needed I guess.

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Arlequín
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Arlequín » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:18 pm

As with most eras, time and unit might account for differences. RF/PF forces were poorly equipped in comparison to the regular ARVN units and 1963 is not 1966... so both authors could be right, at least within a given context.

I really don't know myself and I'd go to the same sources to find out. I would perhaps set the list up for the 'worst-case' scenario, but allow upgrades via the Support List to produce the 'ideal-case' one.

Corktip100
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by Corktip100 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:01 pm

Arlequín wrote:I'm now sat on the fence... as Siggian's point makes sense too. :|

A kill in one respect has less effect on a unit as a rule. Traumatising certainly, but you can't do anything for a corpse and of course they don't scream either. A wounded man in a team not only uses up another to attend to him, but also distracts his team mates out of natural concern.

When the time comes to move the stabilised casualty out of harm's way to the CCP, it's usually a two-man job, three if someone is needed to hold up a plasma pack, or if he's a really big guy. One lucky shot, or a booby trap, has just taken out a whole fire team effectively, despite only causing a single real casualty.
Sorry for wading into this thread so late...

What Arlequin says makes a lot of sense to me. I like the view in the original Squad Leader rules: a unit (squad, section, fireteam, whatever) is either up and fighting, keeping a low profile ("broken" in the SL rules) or it's out of the game. For something like CoC where we're dealing with a short amount of time, the effect is more important than the actual results. A couple of lucky hits and your squad is out of it until it can deal with its wounded and re-org. By the time this is done, the firefight is probably over.

I am going to experiment with this approach for small scale figures based collectively. A unit takes shock as per the rules, but doesn't remove individual figures as casualties. If, as the result of incoming fire, the unit takes more than a certain number of KIAs, it is removed. Otherwise, it continues to fight (albeit with a higher level of shock). The threshold will be dictated by force morale and/or quality of the troops. Really all it means is that I avoid having to use yet another marker for casualties.

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:51 am

Reading more, I've gotten the impression that the US military stopped using 60mm mortars around the end of the Korean War. In Vietnam the US Marine Corps brought them back into service, while the US army did not. Is this consistent with other peoples' understanding?

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:02 am

One random thought I had was to play with who knows what.

In standard CoC what support a player takes is supposed to be secret. Perhaps for NVA they'd get to see what supports the opponent is bringing, and the VC would get to chose their supports after getting to see what their opponent is taking.

Seems a bit powerful, maybe a dice roll?

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:25 pm

Found some things that will hopefully be of use for the ARVN:

The Development and Training of the South Vietnamese Army
http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/ ... index.html

Advice and Support: The Final Years, 1965-1973
http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/ ... index.html

I can't tell if they'll be useful for platoon level info, but I hope so.

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:39 am

To try and answer my own question, the 'knowing what supports your opponent has' probably only makes sense in specific scenarios. For ambushes and assaults on fixed positions it might make sense, but for two patrols bumping into each other it doesn't really fit.

jarhead60mm
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by jarhead60mm » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:57 pm

I was with USMC Hotel 2/7 in VN 1970. We only had one 60mm mortar. There were suppose to be three in a company, but we only had enough mortar men for one. The whole company was under strength.

When stateside I was with 2/6 (71-72). There were only enough mortar men for the 81mm platoon, so the 60's were never used.

USMC is still using the 60.

I have a read of a couple of army units in VN who had a 60. One unit had traded with a local ARVN unit for it.

Terry

dwtaylor0
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Re: Trying to adapt CoC to the Vietnam Conflict

Post by dwtaylor0 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:21 am

Jarhead60mm,

Thanks for the info! In my reading my impression is that (at least ideally) the squad leader would be with the M79 gunner directing their fire. Was this at all consistent with your experience?

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