Some more post-game questions

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GavinP
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Some more post-game questions

Post by GavinP »

Last night we finished our game from last week, with the result being a bloodbath for both sides and neither set of players feeling like they could do anything further. The Germans had lost 14 men and the British 11 but the force morale had been barely impacted. We called it as it had ended being a frustrating and unsatisfactory experience and with some more questions that need resolving. We're planning on playing the same game next week to see what we learned.

1) The rules (pg20) say a leader can use CI to transfer men between teams. Are you able to entirely remove a team voluntarily in this way? One of the issues we had last night was teams with 1 or 2 men left and it would make far more sense to be able to reorganise and combine those two teams into a single one. And if using a SL I'd argue you could roll teams from multiple sections together to generate a workable "section" but that does go against RAW. So the question is, can I voluntarily combine 2 teams into one, and if so do I avoid having to roll on the BTH table?

And I guess a subsequent 1b) if the above is OK. What limitations are there to this? Can I take my PzGren squad, combine the 8 men together to have a single 8 man team with 2 LMG from the beginning?

2) Can you use 5 rounds rapid on different targets and if so where do the extra dice get assigned? We had a rifle team splitting its fire out of two different faces of a building, 2 firing at a MMG and 3 firing at a squad in a different arc. I know that the opponent would love to have doubled his firepower at the MMG but I ruled that they couldn't use it unless at the same target because I didn't know how this was supposed to work?

3) Is there a minimum number of figures firing for 5 rounds rapid? One guy left getting 3 dice seems a little...generous.

4) When a section has a team wiped out, does the remaining team activate on a 2 still? I believe I've seen it somewhere that it only activates on a 1 but it's not in the FAQ/Errata so I'm not sure where I've seen that.

5)
Troops firing from, or to, an elevated position, such as high ground or the upper storey of a building or tall vehicles such as tanks, will have better visibility. Quite how much better will depend on their height in relation to the target Unit and intervening terrain. Measure the shot from firer to
target applying the normal line of sight limitations
What does this ACTUALLY mean because I read it as "troops elevated get special rules. Use the normal rules.." The specific instance was those guys in the building top floor, shooting over a hedge (defined in the scenario as blocking LOS after 2") into the orchard (ignoring the fact we were allowing much greater LOS into and out of the orchard than RAW).

6) When using an interrupt to shoot at the enemy, can you literally wait till your opponent says "I'm activating this section to fire at that unit" and say "I'm interrupting and firing first" or do you have to wait to fire till after the activated unit like overwatch?

7) Twice my opponent used an interrupt to "move away from the windows of the building" when I was going to shoot him, and then moved back in his phase using 1 dice movement and half firepower. Is this OK? (I believe so but we weren't sure if it was cheese)

8) We were looking at our table vs some of the maps in the scenarios in the PSC's I have and noticed something I couldn't explain or decide how it was supposed to work. In many of the maps, there are random trees dotted around. The scenario notes say "Orchards make up the majority of the woodland shown... Where these are more randomly distributed treat them as woods". If you look at for example scenario 5 Pg26 of Scottish Corridor, there are numerous fields with trees in. Are these fields entirely orchards or woods, or specific areas? Does a single tree count as a "wood" or "orchard" and how big is it? For example the bottom left field with the british deployment area arrow running in it, is that a space of open between a wood and the hedge or not?

As ever, thanks for your patience.

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Seret
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by Seret »

GavinP wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am
1) The rules (pg20) say a leader can use CI to transfer men between teams. Are you able to entirely remove a team voluntarily in this way? One of the issues we had last night was teams with 1 or 2 men left and it would make far more sense to be able to reorganise and combine those two teams into a single one. And if using a SL I'd argue you could roll teams from multiple sections together to generate a workable "section" but that does go against RAW. So the question is, can I voluntarily combine 2 teams into one, and if so do I avoid having to roll on the BTH table?
You can reorganise as much as you've got CIs for (which is generally never enough by the time you've got squads that beaten up).
And I guess a subsequent 1b) if the above is OK. What limitations are there to this? Can I take my PzGren squad, combine the 8 men together to have a single 8 man team with 2 LMG from the beginning?
Pre-game you can reorganise however you like. Often you'll need to during campaign due to losses. But you can also do it for tactical reasons, for example you could pool all your MGs into one squad and create a base of fire and a maneuver element.
2) Can you use 5 rounds rapid on different targets and if so where do the extra dice get assigned? We had a rifle team splitting its fire out of two different faces of a building, 2 firing at a MMG and 3 firing at a squad in a different arc. I know that the opponent would love to have doubled his firepower at the MMG but I ruled that they couldn't use it unless at the same target because I didn't know how this was supposed to work?
You can split your fire however you like.
3) Is there a minimum number of figures firing for 5 rounds rapid? One guy left getting 3 dice seems a little...generous.
No minimum. Same as "covering fire", one man is just as effective as several. It's a bit quirky but the alternative would be adding more complexity for a situation that only comes up occasionally.
4) When a section has a team wiped out, does the remaining team activate on a 2 still? I believe I've seen it somewhere that it only activates on a 1 but it's not in the FAQ/Errata so I'm not sure where I've seen that.
No, it's now just a team so activates on a 1 (or probably a 3 if the JL is still around).
5)
Troops firing from, or to, an elevated position, such as high ground or the upper storey of a building or tall vehicles such as tanks, will have better visibility. Quite how much better will depend on their height in relation to the target Unit and intervening terrain. Measure the shot from firer to
target applying the normal line of sight limitations
What does this ACTUALLY mean because I read it as "troops elevated get special rules. Use the normal rules.." The specific instance was those guys in the building top floor, shooting over a hedge (defined in the scenario as blocking LOS after 2") into the orchard (ignoring the fact we were allowing much greater LOS into and out of the orchard than RAW).
Yes, elevated positions allow you to fire over things that might normally stop LOS, such as friendly troops. You'll need to make a judgement call on things like hedges and walls, but personally I'd say you only get to see over them if they're close to the building or it's very tall (eg: church steeple)
6) When using an interrupt to shoot at the enemy, can you literally wait till your opponent says "I'm activating this section to fire at that unit" and say "I'm interrupting and firing first" or do you have to wait to fire till after the activated unit like overwatch?
Absolutely. That's what interrupts are usually used for. Tanks love doing this, if they're trying to get a shot off before another tank tags them.
7) Twice my opponent used an interrupt to "move away from the windows of the building" when I was going to shoot him, and then moved back in his phase using 1 dice movement and half firepower. Is this OK? (I believe so but we weren't sure if it was cheese)
Gamey as, but technically ok. He's giving up half his firepower though, so I guess he's suffering some penalty for his cheesemongering.
8) We were looking at our table vs some of the maps in the scenarios in the PSC's I have and noticed something I couldn't explain or decide how it was supposed to work. In many of the maps, there are random trees dotted around. The scenario notes say "Orchards make up the majority of the woodland shown... Where these are more randomly distributed treat them as woods". If you look at for example scenario 5 Pg26 of Scottish Corridor, there are numerous fields with trees in. Are these fields entirely orchards or woods, or specific areas? Does a single tree count as a "wood" or "orchard" and how big is it? For example the bottom left field with the british deployment area arrow running in it, is that a space of open between a wood and the hedge or not?
Single trees on PSC maps are just decorative.

On the map you've mentioned:
Image

...we counted the field at the bottom right as an orchard, and the two at the bottom left as woods. All the others are open ground. In practice it doesn't make any real difference, because they've all got big hedges bordering them which block LOS.

Archdukek
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by Archdukek »

Just to add a caveat to Seret's first reply. The rules only allow a Junior Leader to reorganise his squad when in action by moving men around between teams. So merging teams who start within the same squad is permitted, but not creating new squads by the SL from teams from different squads in game. That kind of restructuring of a platoon is done either before or after a game as part of a campaign.

I believe this is deliberate. Too much organisational flexibility in game could impact negatively on how Force Morale works.

I'd also be cautious about ignoring an army's normal doctrine in restructuring the squads between games. So personally I wouldn't be keen on merging the two German LMG teams into a single squad. It removes one of the distinctive features of a German squad compared to a Soviet one. However, you could add one or more teams to a squad to create a base of fire.

John

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Vanth
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by Vanth »

Seret wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:00 am
7) Twice my opponent used an interrupt to "move away from the windows of the building" when I was going to shoot him, and then moved back in his phase using 1 dice movement and half firepower. Is this OK? (I believe so but we weren't sure if it was cheese)
Gamey as, but technically ok. He's giving up half his firepower though, so I guess he's suffering some penalty for his cheesemongering.
Well, not only that but he is also burning a CoC die so he is paying handsomely to save a few potential hits...
Vanth
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Munin
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by Munin »

Seret already answered most of these in ways I completely agree with, but there are a couple that I wanted to elaborate on a little bit:
GavinP wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am
1) The rules (pg20) say a leader can use CI to transfer men between teams. Are you able to entirely remove a team voluntarily in this way? One of the issues we had last night was teams with 1 or 2 men left and it would make far more sense to be able to reorganise and combine those two teams into a single one. And if using a SL I'd argue you could roll teams from multiple sections together to generate a workable "section" but that does go against RAW. So the question is, can I voluntarily combine 2 teams into one, and if so do I avoid having to roll on the BTH table?
Within a single squad I would say you can absolutely combine teams, but with two important caveats: First, the last man to transfer brings his Shock with him. You should never be able to voluntarily destroy a team as a way to reduce Shock. Second, I would absolutely make you roll on the BTH table, reflecting the fact that the squad has lost tactical flexibility and the men in that unit know that if they're getting rolled into a single team it's because things are going to hell in a hand-basket. Morale should suffer accordingly.
GavinP wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am
7) Twice my opponent used an interrupt to "move away from the windows of the building" when I was going to shoot him, and then moved back in his phase using 1 dice movement and half firepower. Is this OK? (I believe so but we weren't sure if it was cheese)
Setting aside the idea of an interrupt, there's actually nothing in the rules that says you can "move away from the windows" at all. Remember, buildings are very abstract in CoC, largely because most wargaming buildings are themselves abstractions; they usually lack interiors and must be made to deal with models' bases in a useful way. Further, there's no "minimum distance" given for how far you'd need to move back to be "away from the windows" - which would be important because if this were actually a thing you could do, there's very much a chance that troops with Shock might fail to achieve it. Because of all this, by the rules as written, you're either in a building or you're not. And if you're in a building and an enemy unit is within the 90-degree arc-of-fire of an opening, you are subject to taking hits whether you're "at the windows" or not.

Lots of people have house rules for buildings, but IMO they usually introduce more problems than they fix.

siggian
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by siggian »

7) Twice my opponent used an interrupt to "move away from the windows of the building" when I was going to shoot him, and then moved back in his phase using 1 dice movement and half firepower. Is this OK? (I believe so but we weren't sure if it was cheese)
First, this costs a CoC die to do. That's pretty expensive and he did it on your phase. On his phase, he moved back. Seems perfectly legit and I don't have a problem with it. Particularly as there are some easy and cheap counters to it:
  • Put the guys who would have shot but didn't on overwatch, where they can then shoot the moment the enemy moves back to the windows (and before they can shoot because you can shoot on overwatch as a reaction to the movement at any point in the move and I'd react to the movement just before they open fire.)
  • Have the guys who would have shot provide cover fire instead.
  • Do a combination of the above with the LMG team doing cover fire (because you only need to cover the windows and that will be less than 4") and the rifle team shooting for effect.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Some more post-game questions

Post by Truscott Trotter »

Spot on Siggian and I would add that you can always try and move a team up and throw some grenades in as well for good measure.

Against an experienced opponent houses can become death traps in CoC.

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