How do you attack in this game?

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GavinP
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How do you attack in this game?

Post by GavinP » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:43 pm

First let me say I really like CoC, it's mechanisms, it's scale and whatnot. I get it.

But.

Every game we have played, the attackers just get mown down. Granted Matt could roll a 6 on a D4 so there is an inherent dice luck issue, but even so...

Do people just roll phase dice and deploy nothing until they roll a double 6 and/or have built up several CoC dice?
Take tonight for example. I roll 6,5,4,3,3 on my first roll. I'm playing superior regulars so that's 2 pips towards a Doc die. I deploy two pzgren squads into an orchard and place them on covering fire on likely positions enemy may spring up on the edge of the orchard.
Matt then inmediately deploys a section in entrenchment in a hedgerow my covering fire is on and opens up on me. I lose a guy, have my JL wounded and take some shock. That squad is now pretty useless as anything but a base of fire and it's sat under the guns of troops in better cover than them so....

Now we have some issues with the terrain rules and what can and can't be seen and how they're applied which did mean a second section deployed in a building across a hedge lined road fired into the orchard at much longer range than should have but the basic principle stands.

The attacker moves/deploys, the defender deploys and kills attacker.

Short of taking an (IMO) game breaking mortar barrage support every game it seems impossible. Clearly it's not but despite knowing infantry tactics perfectly well, I cannot execute them on the table and it's bloody frustrating.

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Seret
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by Seret » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:35 pm

GavinP wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:43 pm
I deploy two pzgren squads into an orchard and place them on covering fire on likely positions enemy may spring up on the edge of the orchard.
Matt then inmediately deploys a section in entrenchment in a hedgerow my covering fire is on and opens up on me. I lose a guy, have my JL wounded and take some shock. That squad is now pretty useless as anything but a base of fire and it's sat under the guns of troops in better cover than them so....
So you now use your other squad, and the infantry gun and SFMG that you bought with all your extra support points, and you muller the squad he just deployed.

Never fight enemy squads one on one if you can avoid it. As an attacker you want to have your various units supporting each other all the time. You can probe forward with one or two squads, but hold your support weapons and a squad or two in reserve. When the defender deploys, plonk them down where they've got a line of sight to them and let them have it. Throw your SL in to wherever you think is the decisive part of the firefight, they go a long way to keep units in good shape and winning the firefight.

siggian
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by siggian » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:52 pm

First, I would put my guys on overwatch rather than trying to guess where my opponent will deploy. This allows me to respond when he does appear. Yes, you got unlucky that your JL got wounded, but two full sections of PzGs should be chucking approx 30D6 in response should cause some damage in response.

On my phase, I try to activate the unwounded JL. He orders one of his LMG teams to put down cover fire on the dug in section. The other team fires for effect or moves to cover if they aren't already in it). The other section with the wounded JL could try rallying shock, jointing in firing for effect, or advancing (maybe tactical to minimize casualties), or even firing while advancing at half effect. You could also deploy your SL to help out.

Your opponent is now facing a difficult choice. He can stick around in an uneven firefight (he's now firing with most of his section at a -1 for cover fire) or he can retreat and give up the foxholes he's used. If he sticks around, just keep one LMG firing cover to reduce your casualties and fire for effect with the rest or moving closer. Once he's pinned, you handganaten him with the closest section and then you are in a great position.

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redmist1122
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by redmist1122 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:13 pm

Please don't take this the wrong way...watch some of the excellent videos from TFL and Tabletop CP. Both have excellent reviews of game play and its mechanics. Sounds like like you jumped in feet first without testing the waters.
Greg P.
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:43 pm

Hi Gavin

Don't feel bad about losing as the attacker, it took me 3-4 years of playing before I won more as attacker than lost, and 5-6 years before attacking became instinctive - that said I still lose 1 in 3 attacking missions! :cry:

One of the reasons for this is that in Real Life (tm) you often attack at 3+ to 1 odds - not so in CoC.

So you have to use your tool kit of tactics to gain local superiority.
e.g.g Pre-game barrage, manoeuvre, covering fire, manoeuvre, terrain, smoke, manoeuvre, opportunity fire, close assault ....you guessed it manoeuvre!!
:D
No two situations are ever alike so one set of tactics will not work in all situations it is up to you to work out what combo is needed but then your opponent and the in built friction can play havoc with your plans - my most memorable games are ones were I plucked defeat out of the jaws of victory. :lol:

It helps a bit if you play campaigns were the attacker (generally) gets extra points but that alone is not enough on its own to win an attack.

Two good sources for examples of attacking tactics are :
1.) Big Richs tactical primer - found here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1BY4c ... ByYzA/view
2.) The AAR's of Tactical Painter (MLB) http://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com/ ... -aars.html

Keep trying!
Cheers
TT

Munin
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by Munin » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:45 pm

Attacking in CoC as in real life is all about generating local fire superiority. This is largely dependent on the terrain, but you can do some things to help yourself here, chief among them being smoke grenades and covering fire. Between the two, they can make it impossible to hit troops at range. If you can isolate one of your opponent's units, you need to focus as much fire as possible on that unit, and that generally means getting your supports in on the action.

Also, don't underestimate the value of scouts. A small scout team can force your opponent to deploy a unit that he didn't want to in a place he didn't want to. Sure, you might lose your scout team, but if you've forced your opponent to drop a full squad or support unit out on a flank to protect an otherwise meaningless JOP, that's a win - especially if that squad doesn't have LOS to the area of the board where the action is taking place.

Remember tactical movement, as it is often under-used. Yes, it's slow and there will be times when sprinting is a better bet, but if you have a squad advancing tactically under the benefits of covering fire, you can really minimize casualties on the way in.

Finally, speaking of "on the way in," try to make your line of approach somewhat oblique, especially when approaching defended obstacles and the like. Eventually you get to a position where only the end guy on the enemy firing line has an unobstructed LOS to your unit, and that's when you can really start to tip the scales.

GavinP
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by GavinP » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am

Many thanks for the replies chaps. I wrote my post last night on my phone, I'm now on my PC so can post some pictures to illustrate the situation. But first to reply to pertinent points.
Seret wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:35 pm
So you now use your other squad, and the infantry gun and SFMG that you bought with all your extra support points, and you muller the squad he just deployed.

Never fight enemy squads one on one if you can avoid it. As an attacker you want to have your various units supporting each other all the time. You can probe forward with one or two squads, but hold your support weapons and a squad or two in reserve. When the defender deploys, plonk them down where they've got a line of sight to them and let them have it. Throw your SL in to wherever you think is the decisive part of the firefight, they go a long way to keep units in good shape and winning the firefight.
I understand that. My point is that initially I don't have the option of bringing anything else on. I deploy what I can, he then gets his go and deploys and shoots it. Should I be deploying my troops forward to begin with, or deploying them behind my own JOP where they cant be shot? Not that that helps overally, because next phase I'll still only have 5 dice with which to activate troops on table and deploy the extras and something will have to move into the potential kill zone.
siggian wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:52 pm
First, I would put my guys on overwatch rather than trying to guess where my opponent will deploy. This allows me to respond when he does appear.
I mulled that over for quite a bit, but since he would get to deploy (almost certainly into hard cover), fire and then I'd get a response, I figured it were better if I were trying to reduce my own casualties initially than cause them on him with a depleted section.
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:43 pm

So you have to use your tool kit of tactics to gain local superiority.
e.g.g Pre-game barrage, manoeuvre, covering fire, manoeuvre, terrain, smoke, manoeuvre, opportunity fire, close assault ....you guessed it manoeuvre!!
:D
I think you've missed the point. I deploy. He deploys and shoots. I die. There is no chance for manoeuvre (unless I've been playing the rules wrong for 5 years and you can move when you deploy but I'm pretty sure you can't). Sure, on my next phase I can now charge my section forward in the orchard getting closer to his troops ignoring the fact I've taken shock. And then he will get his phase. No prizes for guessing what he is going to do... Or I can try and sit under his guns and fire back, despite the fact I've lost men already.
Munin wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:45 pm
Also, don't underestimate the value of scouts. A small scout team can force your opponent to deploy a unit that he didn't want to in a place he didn't want to. Sure, you might lose your scout team, but if you've forced your opponent to drop a full squad or support unit out on a flank to protect an otherwise meaningless JOP, that's a win - especially if that squad doesn't have LOS to the area of the board where the action is taking place.
With a squad made from 2x LMG team of 3 +1 rifleman, how do I make a scout team? And with a Force Morale of 8, is putting a tiny unit there to be shot at really advisable, especially when the enemys FM is 10?
Munin wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:45 pm
Remember tactical movement, as it is often under-used. Yes, it's slow and there will be times when sprinting is a better bet, but if you have a squad advancing tactically under the benefits of covering fire, you can really minimize casualties on the way in.
Again, my casualties were caused in the first enemy phase. No opportunity to be tactical.


So, here's a few pictures of our game. I'm trying to get to the point where we all understand the rules well enough to play through either Martlet or Scottish Corridor so these are "training games" to try and instil the rules in our heads, we play too many games (board games and miniatures) and too many periods to remember a game properly from 2 years ago. We're trying to use different support and different assets to make sure we have a clear understanding across all the options.

We're essentially playing Attack and Defend, with the Germans having 11 support points (1 x PzIVH and 1 x MMG) and the British having 5 Support points (6pdr). The Patrol phase played out relatively straight forwardly, although the British obviously had the opportunity to have the stronger position with the buildings in their deployment zone. As the Germans Peter and I put two JOP's relatively close to each other behind the orchard and the third in the large field.

Image

Image



At this point I think we're probably about 8 phases in, the British have had two double phases, the Germans (Superior Regulars) have managed to throw a single 6 in their entire command dice...(Definitely Peter's fault, not mine :)) We deployed the MMG to fire on the building that we're taking fire from the 2nd floor but because we needed to deploy the SL to the orchard to help since both JL are either stunned or wounded it's fired only once, on an interrupt. We managed to kill the Bren team in the entrenchments in front of us, but one of our teams is down to a single man, the MMG has lost 2 men and one team in the other section has lost a man now as well. I failed to roll to bring the 3rd section on having no adjutant.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:17 am

No I haven't missed the point if you deploy in a position where you are in LOS of where the enemy can deploy then you will get shot.
If I cannot deploy into hard cover and on overwatch and with another unit in support then I do not deploy there unless it is a decoy while I manoeuvre somewhere else

If ALL your JOP's are like that then you better practice your patrol phase.

I was talking in general terms specific answers are pretty useless as I have said, However......

BTW you can deploy tactically so it doesn't matter that it is his phase when he shoots at you.

As a German you must always look to take a second senior leader or at least an adjutant otherwise you are fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Personally with 11 support points I would not be taking a Panzer IV - waste of points
Take another infantry squad and a second SL .

GavinP
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by GavinP » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:35 am

On the subject of support points, as said, these are games to try to get a feel for all types, and we're limited with support options atm due to not having requisite figures. Also in spirit of "play the period not the rules", maybe the Platoon commander wasn't given the option of what he had? I very much doubt in reality they had. :lol:

I'm not sure what is wrong with my JOP, please explain. And how I have done badly as you seem to be inferring. With 4 free moves from the base line on the road, vs the British starting 18" from their base line, I'm essentially 6" down on him. (I moved all 4 markers into two piles about 8" apart to give flexibility to shift either side.) I'm not really sure how I'd "deploy into Hard cover" on a table that has none at my end. And there's no opportunity to get anywhere near the buildings. What I'm inferring is that you only deploy when you get a "perfect" roll on your phase dice? If so, how many rolls does this take on average and how many CoC dice do you generally have built up before you actually get anything on the table?

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: How do you attack in this game?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:41 am

So of you delpoyed behind the orchard what shot you when you deployed?

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