Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

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JOHN BOND 001
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Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by JOHN BOND 001 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:14 am

help needed:
• 2 x German section moves within 4” of a British section (10 figures) and close combat occurs.
• The German player has 4 times the amount of dice to the British player; the British section now has to:
“…..fall back 3 D6 inches with their backs to the enemy and take 8 points of Shock…”page 59 rule book.
• British player rolls 3D6 and moves away from the Germans.

1. Does this “Rout” as a result of Close Combat last only for that Phase only?
2. Or does the British section have to continue to Route with 3D6 the rest of the game?
3. In the next British Phase, can the section be activated to move or fire?
4. While rolling the initial 3D6 dice does terrain effect the movement, e.g. a deep river is in the way that can only be crossed by boat or a large building is in the way?

thanks John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:25 am

My guess worth 0.000000001 Bitcoin
1. Yup
2. Nope
3. Fire as pinned no move
4. Nope but commonsense says halt at impassable if no way around eg river.

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Quackstheking
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by Quackstheking » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:40 am

My take on the questions

1. yes and roll on the BTH table for section routs.
2. Only 1 rout move so no doesn’t continue to rout.
3. The section has 10 men and 8 points of shock so it isn’t pinned. Therefore it can activate on a 2 and move or fire remembering that any move will be reduced by 8” or firing dice by 4. It could go tactical and at least turn to face the enemy so it doesn’t get charged in the rear! On a 3 the JL can activate and remove shock and again use a 2nd initiative to get the section to turn and go tactical (or fire at half effect).
4. Rout moves ignore terrain generally, but common sense they can’t cross impassable terrain such as a river. However they should keep moving parallel to the river in whatever direction takes them further away from the enemy. However they would ignore normal terrain like a large house.

Hope that helps.

Don

JimLeCat
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by JimLeCat » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:50 am

This 'rout' has nothing to do with breaking, or routing as a consequence of that, it's just a swift retreat to avoid a hopeless fight (this was hashed over when CoC was first released). The wording is a hangover from IABSM, I think, where a similar mechanism applies but the term doesn’t have the same connotations. Thus there is no BTH roll, but otherwise I agree with the post above.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Jim

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 pm

Routing sounds like breaking in every other rule set I have played. If a 'rout' in CoC is meant to be a fallback move then thats what it should be called.

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Capt Fortier
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by Capt Fortier » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:45 pm

JimLeCat wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:50 am
This 'rout' has nothing to do with breaking, or routing as a consequence of that, it's just a swift retreat to avoid a hopeless fight ... Thus there is no BTH roll...
While it may be correct that this "swift retreat" is pretty sensible, my sense of the way BTH rolls work is that they reflect how the whole force would respond - and my sense is seeing your mates heading swiftly in the other direction with their backs to the enemy because the fight is hopeless can't really be seen as a good thing? I'm with those who say it should still get a BTH roll as a rout.
Capt Fortier

“Un optimiste, c'est un homme qui plante deux glands et qui s'achète un hamac.” - Jean de Lattre de Tassigny

JimLeCat
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by JimLeCat » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:54 pm

Except a rout doesn't incur a BTH roll anyway - breaking does, and *also* causes a rout. The only BTH roll for routing is for a leader leaving the table at the end of the turn if attached to a broken unit.

OldNick
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by OldNick » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:42 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 pm
Routing sounds like breaking in every other rule set I have played. If a 'rout' in CoC is meant to be a fallback move then thats what it should be called.
And this is why we should all take care to answer questions on these rules as written and clarified in these rules, and not as understood in other rules.

In these rules, the effect of routing - a non italicised term - on force morale is when either leader type routs off table.

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Quackstheking
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by Quackstheking » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:21 pm

JimLeCat is quite correct to point out that in the rules as written Rout is different to Breaking.

Interestingly even Rich has mixed the terms up as in the BTH table he refers to sections and teams breaking but only testing for Support Units routing! By this strict reading using John’s scenario what we are saying is that if it is a core section then no BTH roll but if it is s suppot section thenthere is a BTH roll!

I suspect that in saying the unit routing before dice are rolled in combat should be considered breaking and that the Support Team entry should read breaking and not routing!

We’ll have to wait for Rich’s return from holiday to find out!

Don

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MLB
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Re: Close Combat 4 x dice to enemy player

Post by MLB » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:56 pm

My understanding has always been that they ‘fall back’, no BTH required (unless this takes them off the table with a leader). They then take 8 points of shock, which may well break them, in which case we roll for BTH and they move back once more for breaking. If this takes them off the table with any leaders then roll on BTH for leader routing. If they stay on the table then no roll.
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