Questions

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Len Tracey
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Re: Questions

Post by Len Tracey »

I agree with MLB, we have to be careful about confusing different rules and what they are trying to represent.

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JOHN BOND 001
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Re: Questions

Post by JOHN BOND 001 »

Asked Richard Clarke for his response to this question:
An enemy section Deploys from a JOP and declares that it is about to fire. Can his opponent use a Chain of Command Dice to “Interrupt” and fire on this unit?
No. He is not aware of them until the moment they open fire. You cannot react to that which you are not aware of.

Munin
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Re: Questions

Post by Munin »

Then presumably you would get the same answer ("no") in regards to being able to interrupt an opponent who deploys a unit directly into close combat.

I'm good with that.

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MLB
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Re: Questions

Post by MLB »

I’m inclined to agree and disagree. I see the logic, but this gives deployment a heightened status something similar to ambush while devaluing the use of a CoC die to interrupt. Surely the use of a CoC die to interrupt makes the interrupt something special and something that will only happen on the odd occasion. No deployment is perfect. An interrupt represents your awareness of an enemy about to act and you have beaten them to it. Not sure why deployment is an exception to that, as unlike an ambush it’s not a complete surprise an enemy has appeared in an area you already know has witnessed enemy activity (ie in the vicinity of a JoP). Indeed surely because of that all your units could be assumed to be on heightened alertness and looking very hard for signs of enemy activity in that area. Once in a while, if you’re lucky, you spot them first.
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Munin
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Re: Questions

Post by Munin »

Ok, but by that logic why can't you shoot at a deploying unit with overwatch fire BEFORE they fire on you? Presumably you know generally where they're coming from, right?

But you can't. Deployment is very much treated like ambush in CoC. It's the key factor behind capturing the "empty battlefield" effect. And an "imperfect deployment" is simply one that is going to force you to move from your initial position before you engage the enemy.

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JOHN BOND 001
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Re: Questions

Post by JOHN BOND 001 »

Munin wrote
Then presumably you would get the same answer ("no") in regards to being able to interrupt an opponent who deploys a unit directly into close combat.
I'm good with that
Sorry Munin forgot to post the item in regards to Close Combat.
6.
Rule book page 22, 5.1.1
Using a Chain of Command Dice
“At any point in the game a player holding a Chain of Command dice may use it to influence the run of play.”
• An enemy section Deploys from a JOP and declares that it is about to fire. Can his opponent use a Chain of Command Dice to “Interrupt” and fire on this unit?
No. He is not aware of them until the moment they open fire. You cannot react to that which you are not aware of.
• An enemy section Deploys from a JOP into Close Combat , Can his opponent use a Chain of Command dice to Interrupt” and move away and disengage from Close Combat?
Same as above. No. The first the enemy know is that they are in combat.

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MLB
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Re: Questions

Post by MLB »

Munin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:36 pm
Ok, but by that logic why can't you shoot at a deploying unit with overwatch fire BEFORE they fire on you? Presumably you know generally where they're coming from, right?
I think that’s different. You can never fire first with Overwatch. It’s not a special activity that is associated with the use of a CoC die. Overwatch is a regular activation that makes you more ready to respond if attacked. You generally know where they are coming from but that doesn’t mean they won’t surprise you.
Munin wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:36 pm
Deployment is very much treated like ambush in CoC. It's the key factor behind capturing the "empty battlefield" effect. And an "imperfect deployment" is simply one that is going to force you to move from your initial position before you engage the enemy.
Consider how many CoC die you get in a normal game and then consider how many times you might use one to interrupt and then how many opportunities you might have to interrupt a deployment, once? twice? never? It’s a rare event, like a double phase, it’s a fleeting opportunity you might grasp. I don’t think it does anything to diminish the empty battlefield, it’s just another moment of friction where your unit’s deployment fails to do what was expected - the enemy caught you out. If you wanted you could even limit its use to once only in a game. Anyhow, it’s all academic, Rich has made a ruling, but had he ruled the other way I’d have been just as happy. Nothing’s broken after all.

I’ve always liked the reaction mechanism in Force on Force where there is a dice off to see who fires first with advantages to the better trained force to respond quicker. I can easily imagine the occasional deployment where an over eager rifleman fires too soon and the enemy make a rapid response and start firing.
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GavinP
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Re: Questions

Post by GavinP »

The rules make it quite clear to me that you're aware of anything on the table. So if the models are there you know about it. The rules also talk about deploy and may fire. Not fire, then deploy. So I'm with MLB on this one.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Questions

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I agree with MLB's reasoning too bit I don't think it is a game breaker to play it the way Rich intends either. :mrgreen:

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JOHN BOND 001
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Re: Questions

Post by JOHN BOND 001 »

page 22 rules
"At any point in the game a player holding a Chain of Command dice may use it to influence the run of play"
Although it states this, there are still circumstances which dictates when a Chain of Command dice may not be used.
eg:
"INTERRUPT" can only be used in the opponents PHASE.
Only one "INTERRUPT" is allow per PHASE.
Can't "INTERRUPT" a "INTERRUPT"
Moving one of your JOP's can only be done in your PHASE.
Moving a Sniper can only be done in your PHASE.

So even though it states "at any point" there are conditions for using a Chain of Command dice.
MTB wrote:
I’m inclined to agree and disagree. I see the logic, but this gives deployment a heightened status something similar to ambush while devaluing the use of a CoC die to interrupt. Surely the use of a CoC die to interrupt makes the interrupt something special and something that will only happen on the odd occasion. No deployment is perfect.
Mark, Richard has commented in the past that at the point of deployment, is the last time the leader of a section has full control of his men.
This in itself is justification for not allowing a "INTERUPT' to occur.
An interrupt represents your awareness of an enemy about to act and you have beaten them to it. Not sure why deployment is an exception to that, as unlike an ambush it’s not a complete surprise an enemy has appeared in an area you already know has witnessed enemy activity (ie in the vicinity of a JoP). Indeed surely because of that all your units could be assumed to be on heightened alertness and looking very hard for signs of enemy activity in that area. Once in a while, if you’re lucky, you spot them first.
Yes a JOP represent the rough known located of the enemy but not the exact location for them to react quickly enough to "INTERUPT' .
The deploying unit has a heads up on the enemy and knows there exact location that is why they are firing or deploying into close combat unlike the enemy who only have a rough idea where they may deploy.


My thoughts John ;)

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