Forests vs Orchards

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john de terre neuve
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Forests vs Orchards

Post by john de terre neuve » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:35 pm

I hardly ever ask opinion questions but I know this is not covered in the ruleset. I know there is a lot of assumptions here but the numbers used are generally accepted.

Forests: LOS 4" in, 12" within
Orchards: LOS 6" in, 18" within

I generally assume orchard trees are 14-18' in height
I generally assume forest trees are 40-80' in height
I generally assume a 2 story house is 20' in height

From 2nd story building to 2nd story building:
I play intervening orchards do not block LOS but forests do.

How about 2nd story building looking down into forests and orchards.
Generally, I would think that soldiers in a second story can see anything in an orchard....of course there would be cover.
Generally I would think that soldiers in a 2nd story building can only see anything into a forest if the target is within 4" of the edge.

Is this reasonable?

John

chris cornwell
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by chris cornwell » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:27 pm

The way I’ve played orchards in spring/summer:
Don’t block LOS for troops on the ground within the orchard, but everywhere in orchards is light cover.
Troops in vehicles can only see 12”( turret is at foliage level)
Troops on higher levels can’t see into orchards period.
I tend to cheat a little and always have the orchard surrounded by walls or hedges which solves any problems with troops on the flat seeing in/out.
Ymmv
Cheers Chris

Archdukek
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Archdukek » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:59 pm

I tend to agree with Chris. In spring/summer for an orchard it's not tree height but the width and thickness of the canopy which matters. At ground level you can see between the trees, but the canopy could be thick enough to block the view from a second storey house window.

However, it all comes down to what you are trying to represent with your scenery as agreed with your opponent.

Also for most CoC games at least in NWE you are talking about woods not forests which can vary quite a lot from dense thickets to open woodland. So it always going to be a judgement call about how much of an obstacle and cover they represent.

John

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john de terre neuve
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by john de terre neuve » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:15 pm

Thanks interesting, I had not thought about the canopy effect.

So generally if I have you right troops in a 2nd story could see a target within 4" of the edge in respect to forests and 6" in respect to orchards (exactly the same as on the ground).

OR are you saying that troops in 2nd story building can not see into tree collections period!

I am just trying to find a simple rule that covers both types of tree collections.

John

Archdukek
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Archdukek » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:48 pm

John,
I've played both that canopies block the view from a second floor window and that the 6" orchard rule applies depending on the spacing of the trees and time of year. For woods it's usually just troops near the edge than can be seen from a higher floor window since the canopy blocks the view deeper amongst the trees.

John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:18 pm

Yup I would agree with that, it does not take long for the LOS to be blocked by the build up of light vegetation.

It is only the fact that low level scrubby stuff is not present in woods and orchards that allows the longsr LOS.

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Seret
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Seret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 am

I''d agree with that, for two reasons:

1) When viewed from above, the tree canopy in an orchard will block LOS
2) Starting to consider vertical LOS is a complication that's not really required in the game IMO.

When you're thinking about LOS in orchards, there's an interesting anecdote from the fighting in Italy. It's party of a briefing given to fresh Churchill tank crews where they were trying to impart the practical lessons learned in theatre:
Italy and to some extent S. France and Austria are covered with olive groves, vineyards and plantations. In the Italian campaign it has been found that the Sherman is not satisfactory for this type of country as it is too high and moreover its hull gun is not low enough. Your Churchill will be extremely useful in olive groves, etc. as it is low and the hull gun is literally 3 feet from the ground.
- Maj Gen ES Strickland, April 44.

Basically, in an orchard if you're any higher up than the lowest branches, your LOS is going to be obstructed. To see through an orchard you actually want to be near to the ground.

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john de terre neuve
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by john de terre neuve » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:36 am

Thanks everyone.

This is table 3 of the Von Luck campaign. There is s large orchard and forest with multiple 2 story houses. It is early June so trees are full.

So I think the edges only for both forests and orchards for targets being spotted by troops in 2nd story buildings.

Eclaireur
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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by Eclaireur » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:02 pm

Interesting thread. Of course much is dependent on the tree type and height.

- if you're going to buy the 'canopy' concept, I can see it's consistent to say that people firing down from the first floor couldn't see the troops shaded by the trees below, and vice versa. Given the spacing of trees in typical orchards, to sure I buy the concept, though maybe for woods.
- cover from view, yes certainly. Cover from fire trickier though. Muzzle flashes and fleeting glimpses would be enough to trigger fire in these situations. But at what penalty? Is there an argument for bands? Up to 4 ins from wood's edge or 6 ins from orchard's treat as light cover, up to double that treat as hard cover?
- with a tank it really is dependent on the type, and indeed the height of the fruit tree. As Seret's interesting quote above suggests, the hull MG could be very effective, even if the turret was not.

What about a tank in an orchard firing against the upper floor(s) of a building? In my view a house or barn would be visible from a tank turret at considerable distance through an orchard.
EC

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Re: Forests vs Orchards

Post by batesmotel34 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:57 pm

My inclination would be just to play with the rules as written for simplicity for visibility into woods and orchards regardless of the elevation of the observer. If you really want to consider the canopy effect, then you would also need to consider how close the observer is to the woods or orchard and therefore how different their line of sight would be from the horizontal. The canopy effective would be strongest for someone looking nearly straight down through the canopy and much less for someone looking into an orchard 100 yards away.

Barring wanting to have some special effects for a given scenario that can be handled by agreement among the players, I'd just go with the RAW.

Height of woods and orchards for blocking general line of site beyond them is something that probably also needs to be agreed before the game although John's estimates for heights sound generally reasonable.

Chris

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