Is moving not really an option in CoC?

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Tom Ballou
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Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Tom Ballou » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:16 pm

A friend of mine and his group has been trying CoC. He made the comment that the game keeps devolving down to line up and shoot.

He loves the patrol phase, but once that’s done there is little to encourage movement. Your punished by moving (losing cover status) and the morale points don’t make lose of a JoP a significant effect. Losing a JL or a SL is worse, so trying to advance to take them out is not rewarded.

So winning the patrol phase to get a better firing position over your opponent is the only critical decision.

I think it has more to do with the scenarios and balance. But I thought it was a valid criticism. Certainly from my experience I have found it true. A lot of the maps are really open, making moving deadly.

He also hated the mortars as they are way under costed and too powerful (but I think that is the consensus of the group). Also they are way, way too close in scale. They are playing Old Hickory and it’s just the winning tool. They have removed it from the campaign pick list.
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:22 pm

I think you will find the non moving is due to lack of experience with the game and tactics.

FWIW inexperienced troops in RL often got caught in static firefights....until they were outflanked.. Rich and Nicks latest video is a great example of how NOT to attack :o :lol:

It took me about 3 years to get the hang of moving to win!

Have you given them a copy of Richs pdf on tactics?

Mortars I agree - half the players hate mortar rules the rest love em. PM me if you would like a copy of our latest hoserules, they are the product of 12 mths playtesting.
Last edited by Truscott Trotter on Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MLB
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by MLB » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:11 pm

At a squad on squad level often one side has an advantage in firepower over another. In that situation the weaker side should avoid deploying into a firefight unless they can bring other advantages to bear. I suspect the defender may be deploying too soon and offering up a target without significant advantage. As defender the thought of catching your opponent by surprise should be top of mind, using both the Ambush rule, as well as a burst of fire from a sudden and unexpected deployment. Just because your opponent has deployed units onto the table does not mean you have to, try playing chicken, with variable movement rates who knows where you might catch an unwary attacker. I think new players have a tendency to rush deployment and get as many units on the table as quickly as possible for fear of being overrun.

The mortar barrage can be very effective, but only if the defender has offered himself as a target. Again if you deploy too quickly and reveal the location of all/most of your units then no surprise the attacker calls down an accurate barrage. You can’t hit what you can’t see.

I’ve put some thoughts on how to deal with an uneven firefight in a post about dealing with panzer grenadiers that might provoke some thought http://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com/ ... chain.html

In a recent campaign game I held off on deployment until very late in a game to good effect to avoid getting locked in an uneven firefight, you can follow what happened here https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com ... rio-3.html

As TT points out there are other examples of play online, these might give more food for thought. I hope that’s helpful.
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Archdukek
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Archdukek » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:08 pm

A lot of new players seem to either want to move and fire or move with 2 D6. They overlook the option of using tactical movement in the open which allows you to effectively "take your cover with you" allowing you to move in the open but still be treated as in light cover.
Add covering fire into the mix and moving in the open becomes quite possible though it's always best to find a covered approach.

John

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:21 pm

Talking Tactics Part 7 - follow it back to part 1
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=3338

Also Anibal Invictus has kindly stored a copy of The Tactical primer which is IIRC all 7 posts combined - I cannot find this on the official site
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1BY4c ... ByYzA/view

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Seret
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Seret » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:36 am

It's a common criticism of the game, and somewhat valid.

It comes down to expectations: gamers are used to lining their troops up in a "deployment zone" and then spending the first hour of the game manoeuvring to contact. CoC skips all that and allows you to deploy your troops right at the moment of contact (should you so desire). While that does result in units moving less than other wargames, it also speeds the game up a lot. That means you get far more games of CoC finished with a good result, without needing fixed turn limits or other nonsense.

I do agree that some of it is inexperience though. When you're defending, placing your JOPs right up the table close to the enemy is generally a bad idea. Hold them deep in your own side of the table and force the attackers to come to you. That forces them to commit, expose themselves to fire, and hopefully they'll not be able to advance in a coordinated way and you can bite off a bit at a time. In fact I'd say deploying too early and too far forward is the classic noob mistake in CoC. Especially if you're outgunned it's best to wait and pick your moment. Make the attacker move and then punish him when he does.

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Capt Fortier
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Capt Fortier » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:56 am

I can absolutely attest to the "what not to do's" noted above, that are very much what a less experienced player tends to do (and I put myself in that boat), but I'd also encourage new players to read some of the AARs to get a sense of both how an attacker can use movement to their advantage, but likewise how a defender can use patience and striking at a decisive point to theirs - I think some of the Tactical Painter's campaign accounts are outstanding in this regard!
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:02 am

Indeed the post mortems in MLB's AAR's are quite educational in his 'learning from mistakes way' :D

Something many of us have done but not written down. :geek:

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oozeboss
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by oozeboss » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:07 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:02 am
Indeed the post mortems in MLB's AAR's are quite educational in his 'learning from mistakes way' :D

Something many of us have done but not written down. :geek:
mumble mumble mumble "crayon broke" mumble mumble mumble

Munin
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Re: Is moving not really an option in CoC?

Post by Munin » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:36 pm

Much depends on the scenario. The attacker cannot win a Probe or a Delaying Action scenario by being stationary, especially against an experienced defender who will wait until the last possible second to deploy.

Also, once you are under fire, standing still and slugging it out is usually the last thing you want to do (unless you're playing Panzergrenadiers) because you are just offering up casualties for no gain. Often, if an attacker can probe forward to get the defender to commit and deploy, he can then pull those probing units back off the line and shift his line of attack to achieve local fire superiority. You can't do that without maneuvering.

Force mismatches can also be really good for forcing movement. If you have a tank and I have little to no anti-armor capability, my best bet to win is actually going to be to rush your JOPs or inflict casualties on your infantry units.

Letting the game turn into a stationary firefight is a rookie mistake, especially in campaign play.

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