House rules for double moves and single sixes.

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Iorwerth
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Iorwerth » Mon May 13, 2019 8:03 pm

Munin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:12 pm
The difference is in how many times a unit can be activated before an opponent gets to take an action. I assume that you're not changing the "units may only be activated once in any given phase" rule, so by going to your system you are fundamentally changing how the game plays out on the tabletop.
I am missing somethng because I am not getting this argument. All the token system does is allow a player with tokens to choose to activate an extra phase when they want to, by saying they are doing so and then spending an amount of tokens equal to the amount of command dice they are going to roll in the extra phase, limited by the normal command dice limits of their force type (i.e. 4,5 or 6). If the terminology is important, then these extra dice created by spending the tokens are rolled in a new extra phase (i.e. the exact same way of operating as the rules as written extra phases).


Munin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:12 pm
Also, at a certain point, rolling more Command Dice doesn't really help you - especially if you have good Senior Leader coverage. So collecting tokens may not actually be the kind of bonus you think it's going to be, as they are likely to be of limited use. This is doubly true if you need to decide to use them before you roll your Command Dice.
I probably explained the idea badly. The normal course of play is not changed. You get your normal phase and roll your command dice as per normal. The change is what happends if you roll multiple sixes (or even a single six). In the rules-as-written multiple sixes give you an extra phase where you get to roll all your command dice again, which can lead to even more extra phases and so on. The token system says that every six you roll gets you a token. At the end of your normal phase you can then choose to spend some or all of these tokens by declaring you are going to take an extra phase , and then you take that extra phase. The extra phase is the same in both systems, just how it comes about is dfferent and how many dice you get to roll in it is diferent.

What this token idea does is reduce the power of the rules-a-written extra phases most of the time, because the player will be rolling less command dice in these phases. By that I mean that in the official rules every time you roll at least two sixes you get an extra phase with 5 command dice (presuming regular troops). What the token system does is say having this extra phase is a tactical decision you make (i.e. you get to choose to have an extra phase if you want to spend tokens to create it) and that the amount of dice you get to roll is determined by how many tokens you spend on this extra phase (governed by troop type limitation), which unless you have been saving them up and not taking extra phases, is going to be less than five dice e.g. the first time two sixes are rolled the user will get two tokens, and if they activated the extra phase they could have a maximum of two command dice (as they would have only two tokens to spend). So for a player to have a full five command dice extra phase, they would have needed to save them up by not taking extra phases earlier which they could have done i they had wished to. So the system does not stop the player being able to do what they do in the normal rules, just slows down how quickly they can get a five dice for it, as well as putting the tactical choice of when to take an extra phase into the hands of the player, rather than at the whim of the dice.

Munin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:12 pm
But to me, the single activation per phase limitation is what completely leaves your proposed idea dead-on-arrival. You really are explicitly turning the game into IGOUGO, and that's something that the multiple phase mechanic in the rules as written is itself explicitly designed to break (along with overwatch, interrupts, and ambushes). I'm OK with making multiple successive phases increasingly harder to achieve, but I think your token proposal completely breaks the spirit behind the game.
I hope that explanation i gave above has helped clear up the misunderstanding about what the proposal actually does to the turn structure and so alievates that problem you saw in it. Really the token system nerfs how good a normal extra phae is when you roll a double six, but allows you to hold off having the extra phase and wait until you have rolled more of them, so that when you do activate you have more tokens to send to get the command dice up.

I am not trying to argue that the token system is a perfect solution, but it occured to me while typing a response to a previous post, and thought I might as well put it down to see what others thought.

One extra change I would add to it is that to activate an extra phase you need to spend at least two tokens.

So the Token system would work as follows:

1. Every six you roll on a command dice gets you a token.

2. When you have two or more tokens, you can declare you are taking an extra phase after your regular phase is over.

3. In this extra phase you roll as many command dice as you spend tokens to roll, with a minimum of two and a maximum of your normal maximum command dice.

4. If you spend the maximum tokens possible for this extra phase (five for regular troops) and have tokens left over after this, you could take yet another extra phase, using the same rules as above (i.e. the system still allows multiple extra phases as per normal, prsuming the player has collected enough tokens).

5. Any sixes rolled in an extra phase do not earn you tokens (?).

6. If you roll three or more sixes the turn will end, and if you choose to take an extra phase it would occur at the beginning of the new turn.

Archdukek
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Archdukek » Mon May 13, 2019 9:12 pm

The probability of rolling a single D6 with 5 Command Dice is higher than rolling 2 D6 and significantly higher than rolling 3 or more. Your "solution" would actually increase the frequency of extra phases occurring through the accumulation of single '6's.

As was said much earlier in this discussion, not being able to do something with a single '6' is not an aberration which needs a solution, but part of the friction built into the game by limiting the number of command options available in a phase.

John

Munin
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Munin » Mon May 13, 2019 9:33 pm

Oh, oh, oh! I get it now. Yeah, I misunderstood how it worked the first time out but this last post made it much more clear.

I share John's concerns. Additionally, I do worry that it will run into a little bit of the same problem you sometimes see with CoC dice, however, in that if you know how many extra tokens an opponent can throw at any given time, (i.e. when they can and can't get a double-phase), it removes much of the uncertainty of the game. And while there's no guarantee that the opponent will get anything useful on those dice, you still know with absolute certainty when it is or isn't possible. I think you lose something interesting there, and especially from a solo-play perspective, that seems like a net loss.

siggian
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by siggian » Mon May 13, 2019 10:23 pm

Munin wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:00 pm
I think that's a perfectly reasonable suggestion, but there are some bookkeeping details that would need to be hammered out. For instance, would add the caveat that the adoption of that Tactical stance should happen at the end of the phase. Otherwise, you'd only ever get one unit's shot off at an enemy before they dropped (as there's no real penalty to going Tactical as a reaction). I would also disallow them to adopt Tactical after a phase in which they used Overwatch fire, as that seems like getting a freebie.
Only after the phase ends and they've been shot at during the phase. Basically, the unit gets shot at like normal in the first phase and then they have the option of going tactical at the end of the phase.

Units on overwatch can either respond as per normal overwatch rules, do nothing (and maintain their overwatch), or go tactical at the end of the phase. So I agree with you.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Truscott Trotter » Tue May 14, 2019 12:41 am

munin @ Otherwise, you'd only ever get one unit's shot off at an enemy before they dropped (as there's no real penalty to going Tactical as a reaction).

Exactly my point in RL men did drop to the ground at the first sign of shooting hitting them or their immediate area - question is do you hit the ground with or without an ounce of lead in you! :)

Getting the men to crawl forwards or return fire or get up and charge was a difficult task for any NCO or officer in any army in WW2
Getting them to drop to the ground when getting hit was not!

I tried several complicated ways to house rule this - then realised that the only one shot per multiple turn was a simple work around - not perfect but gave a reasonable way to stop the endless shooting at men standing in the open while still allowing tactical initiative and made the least change to the multiple rule as is.

Contrarius
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Contrarius » Tue May 14, 2019 1:28 am

I could live with a single six being convertible into a five, aka a pip on the CoC dice. But not double sixes or treble sixes, etc. In the few games I’ve played the sides have rarely rolled enough complete dice to actually risk using them. It might also curtail the omnipotence of the off-table mortar barrage slightly. So yes, I might give that a try.

I also like the idea that in multiple phases each unit only gets to shoot once. Will certainly try that too.

As it stands now, I have a rule that in a third multiple phase the player loses one die, in the fourth, two dice. Seems to work well.

My general view, however, is to keep things as simple as possible and not to introduce more obstacles to learning the rules. Additional tokens, chits, bullets, etc. are an extra layer of complexity, and therefore to be discouraged.

Iorwerth
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Iorwerth » Tue May 14, 2019 7:05 am

Archdukek wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:12 pm
The probability of rolling a single D6 with 5 Command Dice is higher than rolling 2 D6 and significantly higher than rolling 3 or more. Your "solution" would actually increase the frequency of extra phases occurring through the accumulation of single '6's.
Yes it would, but each one of them would be less powerful. The only way to get an extra phase equal to the current ones would be to save up the tokens, so I think the actual amount of extra phases would probably go down, as players save up their tokens to get an extra phase that has the possibility of some real bite. If you take an extra phase and only have two dice to throw for it, then you could easily get a roll that is not really that useful, so unless you think you really need to take that gamble, you would probably just try and build up more tokens so that when you do get the extra phase you are throwing more dice, and so have a greater chance of getting rolls that you can really use to maximum effect

Archdukek wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:12 pm
As was said much earlier in this discussion, not being able to do something with a single '6' is not an aberration which needs a solution, but part of the friction built into the game by limiting the number of command options available in a phase.
Here I disagree unfortunately. I am not enamoured that a player is punished by the game for throwing a sinlge six, and don’t really see this game mechanic as an attractive way of representing friction really. Friction is created in many different ways within the game, so I don't see the single six as a necessary part of modelling friction in the game, just a mechanic that punishes the unlucky really.

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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by gilliessim » Tue May 14, 2019 8:28 am

It seems to me that your mechanism comes down to who rolls more sixes gets to have more double phases and do more with them, at a time of their choosing. I don't see how this solves the issue - if one person is rolling more sixes then they are going to have more command tokens and therefore more initiative. That is pretty much exactly the same as the original but removing the uncertainty of when it happens. Personally i prefer the friction and uncertainty of not knowing what happens and trying to make best use of what I roll. To me the single six is that little annoyance of things not running efficiently every single time, I like the limitations it introduces, sometimes not everything can be put to use and to me that is fine.

A small quibble would be that deciding at the end of your phase to have another runs into an issue whereby you can roll sixes in phase to add to the command token total before declaring a second phase - you can decide after a full phase of action if you are having another. That removes the "fleeting opportunity" feel you get with the rules as written - deciding if you are going for that outlandish gambit as a sudden double phase appears.

It would be interesting to read some AARs when you use this system to see what it plays like, it is an interesting idea but I would worry it gives too much control to the players. Hope it works well for you though.

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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by andyskinner » Tue May 14, 2019 12:12 pm

Iorwerth wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:05 am
I am not enamoured that a player is punished by the game for throwing a sinlge six, and don’t really see this game mechanic as an attractive way of representing friction really.
I don't think that "punished" is the right word. If you only have one senior leader and you roll two 4s, that's part of the fact that not everything is supposed to be useful. It isn't a punishment. You have to learn to make do with what you have. Same for 6s. You aren't punished, but you don't need to be rewarded for everything, either.

Why think of this particular roll as being a punishment, and not "I've been punished for rolling all 1s when shooting!"

I'm happy to change games when I don't like some detail. I don't have a problem with these particular issues, so don't need to change. But I'm curious about the notion that a player is punished by a roll.

andy

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Quackstheking
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Re: House rules for double moves and single sixes.

Post by Quackstheking » Tue May 14, 2019 12:32 pm

I have no problem with the rules as written and of the many games i’ve played only once has a run of extra phases proved decisive. However having played a few games with Rich, he only allows a maximum of 3 phases - if a 4th is rolled then the player gets a CoC dice instead and their go ends.

Remember rolling multiple 6’s means there are less action “dice available”. Thus in the above example of the 15 dice rolled a minimum of 6 would be 6’s plus probably 2 5’s giving 7 action dice which may or may not be great.

Often when the first double 6 is rolled there is always a temptation to take a chance but fate then decides that the next roll is awful!

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