Random thought/s on close combat

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oozeboss
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by oozeboss » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:46 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:32 pm
As the rules stand the only time you get one side breaking off without a bloodbath is when this applies - pretty rare

Total up the number of dice to be rolled by each
side. If one side has four or more times as many
dice as their opponent, then the side with fewer
dice Routs immediately.
You've obviously not played against Late War Australians, lately. It won't be that rare against them in their proposed rules. ;)
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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by Truscott Trotter » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:44 am

Oh dear.

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MLB
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by MLB » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:14 am

Anyone engaging in close combat against a unit that is not pinned, has a light machine gun and is in cover should expect to take some nasty casualties. I soon learned this the hard way when I first started playing. Nowadays my main experience is achieving the 4:1 odds and seeing the defender flee, as I’m always very cautious about jumping in to close combat. In fact in a campaign I’ve often wanted to have my opponent stand and fight so I can inflict maximum casualties with the odds weighted in my favour and there have been times when I’m disappointed to see them run away.
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bob696
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by bob696 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:54 am

bob696 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:43 pm
As the rules stand the winner is permanently shagged.
No, just until the end of the game
So just like the loser then?

I am not sure I am in with this 'It is a very short space of time' rational completely. Totally understand that a 'phase' can be measured in seconds but 'End of turn', as far as I remember, is defined as an indeterminate amount of time representing a lull in the action during which all sorts of things happen such as routed units get off the table, smoke clears, buildings collapse etc

Regarding softening up. Again I get that but it rather clouds the issue of the WINNER getting disproportionately nuked. If the defender is not sufficiently softened up then they should come out of it relatively intact when compared to the attacker Lets put another example on the table. A typical green squad launches an assault on an elite lmg team. The elite team is going to win, hands down BUT it will take on average 4 kills and be removed from the table. Is that an accurate representation of a suicidal charge with zero chance of success? (and yes, I know the lmg should have been supported and could have used a coc die but shit happens)

Yes, I should have just shot the senior leader but
a) Poor understanding of the visibility rules on my part is to blame on that.
b) it doesn't hid the fact that you can't soften up a leader with shock and he effectively destroyed a squad on his own with a pistol

I think (I don't have the rules to hand tbh) that SP2, which I havn't played in 6 months or so, has shock on 5 and a shock and kill on a 6. This might be a better way to go.

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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by chris cornwell » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:44 am

One of the tricky disparities in CoC close combat is when there is a smallish force defending against a larger (but not 4 x dice larger) force, because the small force simply doesn’t have the men to lose and the larger force does.
Say a not uncommon situation of say, 3 defenders. - a JL with smg, and 2 men on an lmg - defending against a whole section. Defender might get about 12+ dice while an attacker will have a similar number. Result = small force wiped out but invariably kills more men than it had itself to begin with.
I don’t particularly have an issue with RAW CC. There are plenty of good reasons as outlined above why it should be bloody. But possibly a small saving roll for victor deaths might be worth trying. Something like when a side wipes out an opponent, any deaths can be downgraded to shock on 6.
Might be too insignificant to bother with...Before making any rule tweak I always ask the question:
Is it actually broken? If its not, don’t try and fix it!
An idea i did toy with but haven’t tried was to roll dice for each side in pairs. I have 20 dice, you have 9 dice - we each roll a single dice together. If one side runs out of men, CC over. If the side with 9 dice survives beyond 9 rolls , then the larger force rolls all his remaining 11 dice.
That might be too one -sided, but it would cut down on the single leader with a SMG invariably taking 3 or 4 guys with him situation.

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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by Seret » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:52 am

bob696 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:54 am
it rather clouds the issue of the WINNER getting disproportionately nuked.
Is it disproportionate though? If the defender is rolling a lot of dice and scoring lots of kills then if you're looking to minimise casualties maybe it wasn't a good idea to charge them. If you charge in on an enemy that's going to roll a lot of dice, yes you're going to get smashed up. How badly smashed up you get is proportionate to how tough a nut they are to crack (within the variability of the dice).

The rolls in SP2 are the same as CoC, 5s are a kill, 6s are a kill and a shock. You do roll slightly fewer dice though, and cover works differently.

Not sure I see any problem with your example. A green squad charges an unsuppressed MG in cover from the front. Sheer numbers means they'll probably do a lot of damage to the MG team, but their own casualties will be horrible and they'll probably lose on combat resolution. Seems ok to me. The rules aren't totally clear on what happens if the winning side is wiped out in close combat, it's been discussed on here before. Some people would let the attackers take the position even if they lost the fight, personally I would apply the same reaction to the losers even if the winners are all dead. I can see both sides of the argument on that one.

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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by Arlequín » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:03 pm

That's it pretty much. If it looks like your target is going to rack up a lot of dice, don't get into close combat, simple as.

The 'art' of the game is to soften up your enemy, as a few here have said, then close assault to destroy him, or force a withdrawal.

andysyk
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by andysyk » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:37 pm

In real life you only Close assault when youre enemy is pinned or surprised, you have to read the situation Close Assault is the finishing stage of any section attack but you wont enter that phase if your enemy is still capable of returning fire. You want him cowering at the bottom of his trench or wimpering into the earth. If youre within assault range but hes still fighting you will rather try to destroy him with close range fire than assault him. Before you go in you reload, proceed yourself with grenades, and pour on fire as you go in, he shouldn't be able to respond if he can, hes going to hurt you.
If youre any good and youre losing a firefight you will, if able to, relocate "bug out" before he closes.
One of the reasons FIBUA is so casualty intensive is because every room is a stand up close assault with both sides alert and capable.
If you do a close assault successfully however, which means you sustained minimum, you quickly reorg and push on, in fact you are encouraged to "fight through" especially in positions of defense in depth. If you don't you lose momentum and the firefight. Of course if possible you rotate another section to the front but its possible to push on with one section through small close combats if they are conducted well.
Really in real life you want to be rolling 20dice and the other guy 0dice.

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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by Munin » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:01 pm

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:32 pm
As the rules stand the only time you get one side breaking off without a bloodbath is when this applies - pretty rare

Total up the number of dice to be rolled by each
side. If one side has four or more times as many
dice as their opponent, then the side with fewer
dice Routs immediately.
This comes up most frequently when a section is tasked with chasing off a scout team or engineering team. And that's literally all it is - you're chasing them away. Not inflicting casualties or whatever, just convincing them that "somewhere else" is where they want to be right now.

Close Combat in CoC is brutal and (usually) decisive. But I'm with Seret on this one - close assaults are wicked, stressful, dangerous business and the fact that an assaulting unit is often spent regardless of the outcome is pretty true-to-life.

Dbsubashi
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Re: Random thought/s on close combat

Post by Dbsubashi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:09 am

On a different tack, grenading that officer may have been better. You don’t have to see your target to chuck grenades at them. You could stay out of sight and toss them in. Of course, he might toss some back!

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