Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

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Greg Bradfield
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Greg Bradfield » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:50 pm

I agree with Andy on sentence 4.3.1 and all it says to me is you may fire but not move on deployment. On a 2 the unit decides by itself to fire and on a 3 the JL instructs them to fire.
If you are referring to the Videos at BOW, Rich admitted to getting some rules wrong due to all the rulesets mulling around in his head so he got a few mixed.
Then again play as you like as long as it is clear to both players beforehand which way it is to be handled.

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Seret
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Seret » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:05 pm

Greg Bradfield wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:50 pm
I agree with Andy on sentence 4.3.1 and all it says to me is you may fire but not move on deployment.
I agree. It's saying they can fire this phase, but not move. It doesn't say they can fire without needing a command dice or a CI to do so. That would be a significant deviation from the normal rules, which you would expect to be pointed out specifically.

IIRC everybody was surprised when Rich made his comment on the BoW video. I don't think anybody put their hand up and said they'd always read the rules as granting a free shot when deploying. I personally just think it was Rich deviating slightly from what's in the rules during what is probably a pretty intense couple of days of travel and gaming. I think expecting him to get everything exactly right and treating his mistakes as new rules is a bit odd. That's why my group hasn't changed the way we play because of it, other groups may disagree of course.

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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Pvt weezle » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:43 pm

I can see both sides of this discussion. the fact that a group can deploy on a two and go right into close combat without a leader reinforces my belief that they can fire without a leader. when we were originally playing the game and the sticky note came along that corrected page 16 (troops deploying on the table etc...) we read that to mean fire without a leader but, I do see what the guys that dont see it that way are saying and of course i can see we all agree, its your game play the way you like. In my mind I see it as the SL telling the squad to get up there and open up and if the JR is along he is merely doing his job by helping the fire be even more effective ie directing and of course after the deployment the SL no longer has control and now it is all on the JR......really enjoying all the comments. i really like seeing how others play and over the years i have grow to love this game.

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Truscott Trotter » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:06 pm

From the Errata
In the first edition copies of the rules the following line is missing from Page 16:
“Troops deploying onto the table may not move in the current Phase but may fire at full effect”.

Says noting about using a CI to fire - I suspect that is what Rich is thinking - not saying I agree but we changes to this way of playing long long time before the BoW vids

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Seret
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Seret » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:12 pm

Pvt weezle wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:43 pm
the fact that a group can deploy on a two and go right into close combat without a leader reinforces my belief that they can fire without a leader.
Yeah, they can fire without a leader, if they deploy on a 1 or a 2.

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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Truscott Trotter » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:24 pm

So you are saying they cannot deploy and fire on a 3 without using the JL's CI?

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Seret
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Seret » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:52 pm

Yup.

Same way you used to play it up until March this year ;)

Every other time they activate on a 3 you need to use one of those CIs to make them fire. We just treat deploying the same as any other time.

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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by andyskinner » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:58 am

Richard does the same thing, and explains it the same way, in "Into the Reich" video. (I'd seen it recently in the video about the Soviet farm.)

I think he does mean it that way (that squad can fire _and_ the JL use CI), because he really emphasizes that's the time you have everybody ready and under control. After that, things get crazy.

I don't have a strong opinion. I think the rules are cleaner if they fire on a 2 or using CI on a 3, and the sentence works that way. But I kinda like the effect of getting one really well organized shot out just as the guys make it to combat. (I admit, I'm just waffling.)

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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by MLB » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:46 am

It would be a lot easier if the rule just said, “treat deployment like a normal activation with the exception that movement is not permitted”.

If that is not the case then it needs to say, “units deploying with a leader may fire without requiring a leader’s CI to do so”.

This then begs the question whether going on Overwatch when deploying requires a CI? A squad deploying on a 2 cannot go on Overwatch because it requires the use of CI to do so, which suggests a leader’s CI is required or used when this happens with a 3.

The other question it raises is whether the two teams in a squad that deploy on a 2 can fire at different targets? This would normally require 2CI, so if a squad deploying on a 3 can do it, where does that command come from if the leader can use his CI for something else? Or do we allow squads deploying on a 2 to do this?

A bit confusing. If it’s a special exception for deploying units this needs further clarification.
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Greg Bradfield
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Re: Deploying squad with Jr. Ldr

Post by Greg Bradfield » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:50 am

A section activating on a 2 both teams fire at the same target no splitting targets as they are under soldier own initiative and if one fires in the heat of battle all follow at the same target, it just shows the true nature of battle and the lack of control at that moment. A section activating on a 3 is under direct control of a leader who brings order and calm to the situation and therefore successfully direct fire on different targets using his CI's.

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