Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

User avatar
Another_Gamer
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 3:19 pm

Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by Another_Gamer » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:12 pm

In a previous post I talked about command dice balance. My gaming group and I are working on this quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with a different number of command dice for Green, Regular, and Elite troops. With Archdukek, Arlequín, TT, (and others) help, we were able to locate some of the posts in previous "Command Dice" threads that have touched on this very topic. These were helpful. It certainly gave us comfort in that we are on the correct path as well as showing us that there are many others out there with some of the same concerns. As a result, we are now confidently using and testing the following rule in our CoC games regarding Green troops:
Green Troops and Four Command Dice
When rolling four command dice for green troops, the player rolls five dice instead. However, one of the command dice should be a distinct and different color to the others rolled. So, for example, you might roll four white dice and one red one. If the differently colored die, red in our example, rolls a 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, it is ignored. If the red die rolls a 6, then this is treated as such and counts towards the number of 6s rolled for the Phase Sequence Rolls (see 6.1 on page 25).

This will mathematically balance the odds of rolling 6s on the dice for the different forces (Green, Regular, Elite). In short, the actual chances of rolling 6s with four dice plus one colored die for Green troops, five dice for Regular troops, or five dice plus one colored die for Elite troops are now effectively the same.

This does not affect any of the point values for forces.
We have been using this quick and easy rule for testing, and so far it works fantastically well. On top of it all, this method matches perfectly with the changes made to rolling the six command dice by Elite troops as explained in the Errata and FAQ. See the “Elite Troops and the Sixth Command Dice” for more details.

We have not tried the idea of counting both 5's and 6's so that Green platoons can generate CoC dice at the same rate as Regular platoons. The main (and critical) reason for this is because there is a mathematical difference between Regulars and Elite troops at generating CoC dice, so there should also be a mathematical difference between Regulars and Green troops at generating CoC dice as well.

We will like to test our our new idea even more before coming to any final conclusions, but everyone is already thinking its a sure thing and should be included in the game. What we are wondering about is why this has not already been implemented when the “Elite Troops and the Sixth Command Dice” rule was added to the Errata and FAQ. It seems so obvious and logical that its almost a mystery. This is why we are very curious what Richard Clarke (designer of CoC) has to say about our "Green Troops and Four Command Dice" idea. We are hoping that he likes it a lot. So much so that he makes it official.

Which color die to use?
Some CoC players have jokingly suggested using a green colored die to show that the command dice being rolled are for Green Troops. This is a creative idea, but not mandatory or necessary. ;)

bob696
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by bob696 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:12 pm

I think the question that needs to be asked first is "should there be a balance?" Why should the less tactically competent generate as many CoC dice as a superior opponent? Is the CoC die a way of representing tactical flexibility and hence better lead troops should have more?

User avatar
Another_Gamer
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by Another_Gamer » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:11 pm

bob696 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:12 pm
I think the question that needs to be asked first is "should there be a balance?" Why should the less tactically competent generate as many CoC dice as a superior opponent? Is the CoC die a way of representing tactical flexibility and hence better lead troops should have more?
bob696, I completely agree with you about generating CoC dice. We do not count 5's with our "Green Troops and Four Command Dice" rule. The main (and critical) reason for this is because there is a mathematical difference between Regulars and Elite troops at generating CoC dice, so there should also be a mathematical difference between Regulars and Green troops at generating CoC dice as well.

This is why we only count the 6's rolled for determining Phase Sequence Rolls (see 6.1 on page 25). Mathematically speaking, the odds of rolling 6's are the same for Regulars and Elite troops, but it should be the same for Green, Regular, and Elite troops. With the "Green Troops and Four Command Dice" rule, the odds of rolling 6's are now the same for all three (Green, Regulars, and Elites). Remember, with the "Elite Troops and the Sixth Command Dice" rule, if the red die rolls a 6, it is immediately converted into a 5. With the "Green Troops and Four Command Dice" rule, if the red die rolls anything but a 6, it is ignore.

What does this all mean? Simply that when using the "Green Troops and Four Command Dice" rule in concert with the "Elite Troops and the Sixth Command Dice" rule, the odds of rolling 6's for Green, Regular, and Elite troops are now exactly the same. This is important for balancing the Phase Sequence Rolls (see 6.1 on page 25).

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by MLB » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:47 pm

One other observation, there is no rule I can find that Green troops automatically have 4 dice, in fact many army lists give a force rating for Green and do not specify 4 dice. I think there’s an assumption that Green are always 4 dice, but checking rules and army lists that is not necessarily the case.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Another_Gamer
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by Another_Gamer » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:18 pm

MLB wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:47 pm
One other observation, there is no rule I can find that Green troops automatically have 4 dice, in fact many army lists give a force rating for Green and do not specify 4 dice. I think there’s an assumption that Green are always 4 dice, but checking rules and army lists that is not necessarily the case.
MLB, that is correct. It depends on the army list. It seems that some Green troops get 5 dice while others get 4 dice. This can be a bit confusing at times.

For example, have a look at the following Chain of Command army lists:
Soviet Union 1939-40
Soviet Union 1941

They both state, "Command Dice: 5 when Regular. 4 when Green."

However, if you look at the army list for Romania 1941 or Italy 1940-41, it implies that both Regular and Green get 5 command dice.

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by Arlequín » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:21 pm

The number of command dice are not tied to the troop type, but are an abstraction of the integrity of the command structure. Five dice is the typical mix of more or less experienced NCOs and a capable platoon leader. Six dice is quite exceptional and reserved for units like the SAS or Brandenburgers et al.

Four dice denotes a deficiency somewhere, a newly raised conscript force might have inexperienced NCOs, or a lack of training across the board. Conceivably you could have a four dice elite force, which might reflect war-shy veterans, or dislike and wariness of a medal hunting CO.

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by MLB » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:40 am

I think 5 dice with most green troops is okay because even if they are commanded by someone of ability their Green status means they still only perform like inexperienced troops.
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by Arlequín » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm

Me too. If you assume that the NCOs have some experience and the platoon leader is average, five dice covers it. Deciding on Green, Regular, or Elite for the platoon itself is just a reflection on the relative proportions of newbies, typical guys and veterans within the unit.

You might grant 'esprit de corps' or superior training will shift troop class up a notch, but it doesn't necessarily make someone a better or worse leader.

bob696
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by bob696 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:21 pm

As I understand it the number of dice reflects the command quality not the troop quality. It is therefore possible to find well led green troops and poorly led regulars

User avatar
MLB
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Green Troops and 4 Command Dice - A quick and easy solution to balance 6's rolled with 4, 5 or 6 command dice.

Post by MLB » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:44 pm

It is about command quality I agree, but it also one of the more general ‘friction’ mechanics. The idea that things can be a little chaotic and even the most simple things are hard to do. More dice certainly represents better command options, but I’ve never looked at it solely as the command mechanic, other factors like number of senior leaders are just as influential. Best to consider it one feature that influences command and control. For example, what’s better 6 dice and one SL, or 5 dice and two SL?
The Tactical Painter https://thetacticalpainter.blogspot.com
Painting little soldiers for tactical battles on the table top

Post Reply