1939 Poles errata

Moderators: Laffe, Vis Bellica

gebhk
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by gebhk » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:23 am

Arlequin - that is the organisation in the LMG manual. Just goes to prove....something. Anyway, if the section in fact really did contain 6 men, then it was exactly like the Polish cavalry SAW section.

a separate Team
Interesting that as a consequence of combat experience, the Germans went the Polish way, ie eliminated the internal formal division of the squad into SAW and rifle teams while the British went the other way. From the point of view of this discussion however, that is immaterial, the point is that whether separate team or not, a certain number of men were involved in serving the gun rather than popping off their rifles. And in virtually all armies (at least in 1939-40) that was 3-4 men, with 3 being the most common. On top of that, in some armies (like the Polish), the SAW team had its own team leader. Otherwise, the role was undertaken by one of the squad NCOs as part of his overall duties.

The main factor is that the BREN can keep that rate of fire up for a lot longer than the BAR whose barrel would be worn out in pretty short order if it kept up that ROF.
Isn't it the point that in the 'normal' ROF, the barrel did not overheat in either weapon. I guess the wz 28 had a significantly higher maximum 'normal' ROF than the Bren because of the radiator ribbing of the barrel. It was only when you switch over to rapid fire that barrel change needs to be effected in the Bren, while the wz 28 can only afford a moderate increase in ROF before the barrel overheats. That was why the Poles were experimenting with a barrel changing design for the BAR. It was not a priority because it was realised that some time would elapse before the logistics system would be able to supply ammo to the sharp end in quantities that allowed much rapid firing to be done.

gebhk
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by gebhk » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:45 am

And pity the poor rules designer trying to convert all of this mix of varying and evolving practices into a coherent and comprehensive whole without drowning us in minute detail and special rules. Plenty of potential here for tinkering to our hearts content in our own games.
Amen to that. What makes it worse is that the various roles and equipment were not permanently grafted onto the soldiers and were changed from one circumstance to another and from one tactical situation to another. And what the top brass thought would happen, as expressed in manuals and training, was often little more than a nodding acquaintance of reality.

User avatar
john de terre neuve
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:37 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by john de terre neuve » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:38 am

and archdukek said:
And pity the poor rules designer trying to convert all of this mix of varying and evolving practices into a coherent and comprehensive whole without drowning us in minute detail and special rules. Plenty of potential here for tinkering to our hearts content in our own games.
after 10 pages the voice of reason!

User avatar
Arlequín
Posts: 1290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: King's Vale Royal

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by Arlequín » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:26 am

Pity the poor soldier. The battalion trains up in 1940 and promptly ships out to the Middle East. Two years later replacements are sent out fresh from training with the new ideas and drills. The battalion then has to knock all that out of them, so that they will do it all properly like they have been for two years.

Nobody with any sense is going to say "But that's not what we did in training Corp".

User avatar
Truscott Trotter
Posts: 6524
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Tasmania the Southernmost CoC in the world

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by Truscott Trotter » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:42 am

Nobody with any sense is going to say "But that's not what we did in training Corp".
Well they might........
......but after they had finished peeling 500lbs of spuds they wouldn't say it again :D

BaronVonWreckedoften
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:28 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:59 am

Don't knock it - make sure you get issued the dodgy peeling knife, and that's your entire war done and dusted.

User avatar
oozeboss
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:25 am
Location: In the Shadow of the Temple of Mir-Anda, Sydney, Australia

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by oozeboss » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:16 am

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:42 am
Nobody with any sense is going to say "But that's not what we did in training Corp".
Well they might........
......but after they had finished peeling 500lbs of spuds they wouldn't say it again :D
500?

Got off lightly.
"We are all worms.
But I do believe that I am a glow-worm."

Winston Churchill

gebhk
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by gebhk » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:45 am

:)

To return briefly to the Poles......

The following comments about the supports' lists are not an argument for change, just comments. Do with them as you will ;)

List 1
The medical orderly was part of a team of three with two stretcher bearers. Rare for him to operate individually.

Short of kidnapping a passing civilian with his car (the platoon having someone who can drive in its ranks was about as likely as the Martians landing on the head of the Loch Ness Monster), I can’t see where a rifle platoon would acquire a car. And even if it did, where would they obtain fuel etc for it?

Wire cutting was entirely within the capability of the rifle squad so I don’t see the point of a wire cutting team.

Engineer teams usually came in sixes (section leader + 5 pioneers)

gebhk
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by gebhk » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:47 am

List 2
The AT rifle had a crew of 1

The 46mm mortars had a crew of 4. The use of single mortars was verboten by manuals and C&P. A platoon should receive support from 2-3 mortars under the command of a sergeant or none at all.

gebhk
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 am

Re: 1939 Poles errata

Post by gebhk » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 am

List 3
There were no snipers let alone sniper teams in the Polish Army. However 1-2 men in a squad could be upgraded to sharpshooters.

Post Reply