Loss of carrier support.

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docfin
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Loss of carrier support.

Post by docfin »

On Wednesday we had a universal carrier + JL and Bren team as a support option . This was hit by AT fire and KO'd and no casualtys. What table would you roll on the FM Table for the loss of the carrier.

moiterei_1984
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by moiterei_1984 »

None as you buy it as a complete support option you (imho) only have to roll when the whole thing including the infantry has been wiped out.

OldNick
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by OldNick »

I am confused here, and think there is a need for an official clarification. I have not found one in the FAQ. However...

Working it through the rules, so as to satisfy myself if it ever comes up...

The British support list refers to "Universal Carrier with Team and Junior Leader " - which quite clearly allows a Bren team.
The description below the support list refers to "SINGLE UNIVERSAL CARRIER This has a crew of three men armed with a Bren gun and a Junior Leader".
The interpretation to me depends on whether the Bren group is (in rules terms) crew of the vehicle or a team. As the word team in the list is italicised, but crew in the notes is not, I take it that the word team is meaningful, and crew is not.

A universal carrier is defined in the British Arsenal Table as being an armoured vehicle (Armour 2) categorised under 'Carriers and Halftracks' so is not a transport vehicle. It is a 'small fighting vehicle'. (11.1.2)
As a carrier or haftrack it is fired on with results under table 13. I am assuming that it was hit with 3 net hits, then 1-4 for effect but no casualties inflicted )(out of 1D6). despite being treated as in the open.

So, the vehicle is lost, the Bren group and the junior leader are extremely lucky and escape unscathed. No Force Morale test is required, and even no rule 15.2 effects need to be applied, as the Bren group is not a vehicle 'crew' in that sense of the word.

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Seret
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by Seret »

The Bren team are the vehicle's crew when they're on board. When they debus they'll typically leave the driver on board and ordered on foot. But yes, if the vehicle is knocked out they can potentially dismount and carry on. No BTH for that, as the support unit hasn't yet been lost.

Archdukek
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by Archdukek »

I agree with Seret that the Bren Team are the carrier's crew as confirmed in the fuller description of the support option on page 91. The fact that the word Team in the list is italicised is irrelevant, it always appears in the lists in italics as does Section and Squad as these have particular meanings under the rules. It simply reinforces the point that the men in the carrier are treated as a Team when they dismount.

Like half tracks the Universal carrier is a personnel carrier and the Team in it are treated as passengers when the vehicle is hit under Table 13. If the vehicle is KO'd, as in this case, the Team in it will take 1D6 hits and be forced to disembark. If they survive then there is no Force Morale test since the supporting unit hasn't been killed or routed. Yet!

This is different from a tank, SPG or armoured car's crew whose vehicle is knocked out since they no longer have any role to play and will leg it triggering a BTH roll.

John

docfin
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by docfin »

yes it was making a dash for the table edge Probe scenario and was hit by a Panzershrek. A 1 for number of hits and a 1 for effect. There was a discussion as to wether a BTH roll was needed for the KO'd carrier.
Thanks for the clarification.

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Tom Ballou
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by Tom Ballou »

docfin wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:43 pm
On Wednesday we had a universal carrier + JL and Bren team as a support option . This was hit by AT fire and KO'd and no casualtys. What table would you roll on the FM Table for the loss of the carrier.
I put this under the heading; “Lucky Sods”
--Tom

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siggian
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by siggian »

It's not RAW (and it seems a minority position), but I'd say that the loss of the carrier (but not the crew) should trigger a BTH roll. The force morale tracks the overall feeling of all the men in a platoon. One moment they have a nice carrier that is acting as a support weapon, mini tank, or armoured jeep, and the next thing is that they don't have that any more, even if the crew survives. I figure that has to be concerning enough to be worthy of a check.

Nick B
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by Nick B »

As the crew are described as "crew" and not as a team surely they are simply lost. They are not passengers they are crew. Do you roll for tank crew casualties when a tank is knocked out? Nor is there any guarentee that the bren (as in place in the firing position) is either undamaged or indeed retrievable from a destroyed carrier.

I would agree with Siggian that you roll BTH on the loss of the carrier but also feel that the team does not dismount.

Just my thoughts........ :)

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Seret
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Re: Loss of carrier support.

Post by Seret »

Nick B wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:20 pm
They are not passengers they are crew.
They're both. The JL is the vehicle commander when they're mounted, when they dismount he'll go with the team on foot. The carrier isn't a tank, they can fight mounted but they'll usually use the carrier to get where they're going and then dismount and fight on foot.
Do you roll for tank crew casualties when a tank is knocked out?
No, because a tank crew aren't supposed to dismount and fight on foot. When an infantry unit are the passengers and/or crew of a transport you do roll for casualties on them and they can dismount and fight on.

Take a look at the damage tables for half tracks and carriers, there's lots of mention of hits on passengers, and a result which forces them to dismount. You don't automatically lose all the troops transported in a vehicle when it's knocked out. Likewise if they bail out due to excess shock they can fight on on foot.

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