Patrol Markers query

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eatU4myT
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Patrol Markers query

Post by eatU4myT »

Hi guys, new to the forums here so don't know what the process is for posting images? Hopefully these two links will work.

I played a game recently against a new opponent, and came across a weird thing in the patrol phase, I've tried to describe it in the image below. I'm Red, and in the first frame I've moved one of my markers up to lock his central marker.

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/15vi ... sp=sharing

He then moves one of his outside markers to stack on top of the locked one. (question one - can you do this? I couldn't see anything to say you can't, he didn't have to move within 12" of any of mine in order to get it there?) I was suprised, and didn't really think much about my next move, moving my end marker further up the table to try to gain ground on some terrain that I hoped to get a jump off point in. His next move, he stacks his remaining marker on the pile, and its phase over! His markers are all locked to one of mine.

We moved on to establishing the triangles where jump off points could go, and ended up with the really odd set up I've tried to show in the last image. (I've not got the scale quite right - his markers are closer to the centre of the table than i've shown, he was able to move up quicker with only 3 markers)

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1DO2 ... sp=sharing

He ended up with a big triangle covering most of his side of the table. I ended up having lines, instead of triangles, as all his markers were in the same place? (question two - is this how you would have worked it? I couldn't find anything written about this at all)

He got some juicy jump off points up in the centre of the table, and I ended up having to deploy right back on my table edge, as my "triangles"(/lines) didn't cross any suitable cover except for below the minimum distance from his markers.

Was this a cunning use of the rules, or a blatant exploit? It seems difficult to get here by accident, so I have to assume he knew the advantage he was getting. How would you have handled this?

I searched online when I got home from the game, and couldn't find much that covered this sort of thing. There was a thread on this site from about a year ago discussing something similar, but it didn't look like anyone could point to any official answer, and it seemed that people were saying it would muck up both players deployment similarly so there wasn't much of a problem with it. That certainly wasn't the case here, although I concede that I didn't know how to react to it, and could possibly have done something to help myself (or make it harder for him). Is there something clever I could have done in the one move I was able to make? I know I didn't think too clearly about it, so maybe I did miss a trick.

Any thoughts would be welcome!

Thanks

Edit: I messed up the links, they should work better now!)

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Seret
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Seret »

Very, very gamey.

He's clearly looking to exploit the rules, rather than simply be competitive and have a good game. It's up to you to decide if you want to continue playing against this guy, I know how I'd feel about it.

I suspect you wouldn't be fooled twice by the same thing. I'm a little sceptical that he'd be able to move his markers in and stack them precisely without ever coming within 12" of one of your markers, and his trick only works if they're exactly on top of each other. He's also putting all his eggs in one basket, for example, in your third picture, if you'd instead moved the marker on the other end of your line you could have got well around on his flank. This would skew ALL his marker deployment zones to the side hugely, while giving you two tables edges to put yours on. Failing that, next time after he's deliberately stacked two of his three markers you can just pounce on the other one and lock it. That'll give you decent angles.

I think it's a dick move, and only worked because you were (quite reasonably) expecting him to be a non-dick. I think you could probably get the upper hand if you played again.
Last edited by Seret on Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rich H
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Rich H »

It's a big risk for him as if you lock two of his down he is then giving awya similarly large swathes of terrain to you
Next time he won't get away with it as youll lock two of them down.

It was a pretty gamey move.

What mission was it?

Munin
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Munin »

I guess I fall on the other side of this - I don't think it's "gamey" because it's part of the process. "Pinching" potential deployment zones is absolutely a valid (and sometimes necessary) tactic. Had you thrown a second patrol marker on top of your first locked one (like he did), then he's screwed, as at least two of his JOPs (and indeed all of them if he throws his third patrol marker there) are basically forced into a single line. Translating this into reality, it essentially reflects your scouts making flanking movements and limiting the opponent's advances to a narrow salient - which absolutely happens.

I mean, you could say it's a little "sneaky" maybe? But not really. And on the plus side, you'll never fall for it again.

Rich H
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Rich H »

We maintain that the patrol phase is actually deceptively complex and important. even after playing CofC for years are we getting a grip of it... and even then we still make mistakes!

siggian
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by siggian »

Munin wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:07 pm
Had you thrown a second patrol marker on top of your first locked one (like he did), then he's screwed, as at least two of his JOPs (and indeed all of them if he throws his third patrol marker there) are basically forced into a single line.
Yes, the rules specifically state the two closest enemy JOPs, so yes, all of his JOPs would be forced into a line or to the same spot at the back of the board. Nice countering tactic by Munin! The other counter is to prevent your opponent from gathering them all onto one spot by locking another one his down before it can jump into the pile.

Sneaky gambit but one that is easily countered once recognized.

eatU4myT
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by eatU4myT »

It was a Probe scenario, with him attacking. He had moved up quickly with his 4 free moves, using leapfrogging/stacking, which I've seen before (and used myself, I'm fine with this for gaining ground quickly), I think we'd only had about 2 or 3 moves each after that to arrive at the setup in the first image.
I guess I can live with this if it's not prohibited in the rules (I take it we are agreeing it's not?), and I can see that if I hadn't been caught unawares by it I could probably have made things tricky for him in turn. For what it's worth, do you think having a line for a "triangle" was the best way to play a bad situation?

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I agree it is a bit gamey but I do not see it as a game breaker as it restricts him to that one triangle
True it also restricts you in the case you reported to 4 lines.
I have a question on your statement here
I ended up having to deploy right back on my table edge, as my "triangles"(/lines) didn't cross any suitable cover except for below the minimum distance from his markers.

There is no minimum deployment distance from HIS markers as such - only a minimum of 6" from YOUR patrol markers
So if your lines did not cross any suitable terrain in that diagram above you need more terrain on your table!! :D

Also as I think someone stated earlier in the third frame of the first diagram it appears you could have moved to within 12" of his second marker and locked it before he could stack it

eatU4myT
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by eatU4myT »

Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 am
There is no minimum deployment distance from HIS markers as such - only a minimum of 6" from YOUR patrol markers
Typo on my part - I did mean my markers, not his.
Truscott Trotter wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 am
So if your lines did not cross any suitable terrain in that diagram above you need more terrain on your table!! :D
Probably some truth in this - though I really meant no useful terrain! :)

I'm coming to the conclusion that I should treat this as a learning opportunity rather than anything else. I'm not sure in the circumstances that I could have made a move that would have really turned things to my advantage, but I can see that I could have certainly made a move to hamper him, and stop the trick from being effective. I'll be more aware if it happens again!

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Truscott Trotter
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Re: Patrol Markers query

Post by Truscott Trotter »

I have been playing wargames for 45 years give or take and as little as 10 years ago I would have said time for a 4x2 meeting in the carpark.

However, nowadays I would just work a counter to your opponents cheesey tactics.and get on with the game.

Rich writes the rules.for wargamers.who want.a fun but challenging time not gamers that want to win at.all. costs.

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