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Artillery abandoning guns

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:01 am
by Giogames
Hy Guy,
at the Wargames Club Lecco (Italy), we are playing Quatre Bras scenario.
See pictures and personality cards on the facebbok page https://www.facebook.com/groups/75403185920/.
We have a question about combat results:
In the 21.1, 21,3 and 21.4 I read: «Troops that supported defeated defenders must withdraw to 4” distance of the victors (artillery abandoning guns if necessary, horse artillery may limber up and withdraw)».
I presume than when Foot artillery abandoning guns...the guns are permanently lost.
It's correct?
Thanks in advance.
GC

Re: Artillery abandoning guns

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:57 pm
by Zippee
No the rule is there to allow crews to retire to the safety of squares and then return to the battery once the threat has passed. Think of Waterloo as the classic example.

You should also read sections 21 as referencing 19.5 for abandoned guns - supports retiring is essentially the same as an evade, its an organised affair not a mad panic.

"Abandoned guns" are not the same as "lost guns". The crew can be moved back to them, effectively it takes them a whole turn to get the battery up and running think of it as a PIP to move them back and a PIP to straighten things out.

I know much of that isn't clearly stated but it was all thrashed out years ago on the Yahoo list.

Abandoned guns could (very rarely) be dragged away or disabled but usually were not. If using the advanced rules, you could allow enemy with a sapper/pioneer/engineer company attached to disable the guns. Otherwise they should be fine, generally the best that could be done was to sever reins and kill the horses so you could certainly claim that any abandoned and overrun battery was no longer capable of limbered movement.

Re: Artillery abandoning guns

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:57 pm
by Giogames
To make unusable a Napoleonic gun did not need engineers or sappers, but it took was a nail and a hammer, or destroy a wheel...
in any case, I think than evasion (19.5) takes place before the combat and the crews may return once the threat has passed, while the effects of combat (as disordered retreat o rout) following firefight and bloody melee. I think there should be treated differently. However, my opponent will be very happy to be able to recover the guns...

Re: Artillery abandoning guns

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:04 pm
by Zippee
It's true that disabling the guns would seem sensible and relativelt easy but the historical record proves that beyond breaking rammers, buckets and the like it just wasn't done.

I wasn't suggesting it needed sappers, just that it gives another use for them in the rules.

Evasion does take place before combat but the retirement of supports is not rout or retreat from combat - especially in the case of artillery who support by firing at range. The retirement of supports represents the giving up of ground following an enemy victory. I was attempting to point out that "Abandoned Guns" as a term occurs in both sections and is different from "Lost Guns": abandoned guns can be re-crewed, lost ones can't