Draft Bavarian army list

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Cptkremmen3
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Cptkremmen3 »

I certainly wouldn't object to anyone using the French Peninsular list if they simply wanted to get some Bavarian figures on the table. They look too cool not to use them! :)


I think that is my current plan. I don't want to be accused of making an uber list so it would be safer to use the french list. Only thing that is a shame is that front rank make some lovely schutzen models with tiny short guns, they claim they are riflemen?

I will probably buy these and use as skirmishers even though the French skirmishers all have muskets, there does not seem to be an option for rifle armed troops

Archdukek
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Archdukek »

Why not simply give them rifles and adjust their base cost. The Sharpulator lists Skirmishers with Muskets at 6 points while those with Rifles are 9 points -an easy adjustment to make.
Remember the Army Lists are guides not Holy Writ. :D

John

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sjwalker51
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by sjwalker51 »

Think I can answer that bit for you - the reforms of 1804 saw 20 rifle-armed, skirmish-trained Schutzen assigned to each fusilier and grenadier company. They were initially armed with the M79 Austrian Jaeger rifle, replaced in 1806 with the M95 version captured from the Austrians. They were equipped with bayonets.

I'd simply use the French Voltigeur 1809-12 roster rating them as Skirmishers but substitute Rifle for Musket. Maybe allow up to 1 Group of 6 for every 4 Groups of Fusiliers/Grenadiers?

And don't forget the Bavarians also had musket-armed Light Infantry in green (?) coats which would be rated the same as Voltigeurs, and you can even field Tyrolian Jaegers (who may also have had the Jaeger rifle IIRC) in dark green if you prefer.

But the beauty of TFL rules is they are not prescriptive - you're encouraged to think for yourself, do a bit of research and come up with your own conclusions about the right way of classifying particular troop types at any one particular time - and provided the chap on the opposite side of the table accepts your interpretation, Bob's your uncle!

Be sure to post some photos of those Bavarians once you've got them painted - you've got me thinking about all sorts of obscure Napoleonic forces!

Cptkremmen3
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Cptkremmen3 »

Thanks guys will do.

I am a pretty good painter and the models look lovely, will put pics up when done
Andy

Voradams
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Voradams »

OK, I am a bit confused on Bavarian terminology.

There is Light Infantry and FeldJagers.

In game terms (using the French list as a guide) Do I treat the Light Infantry as Voltigeur (having both 8 man groups and 6 man skirmishing?) or do I treat the Light Infantry as the 8 man group and the Feldjagers as skirmishers?

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sjwalker51
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by sjwalker51 »

'Feldjaeger' was the pre-1804 term for the Light Infantry battalions who, in theory, were armed with rifles but this usually only applied to the Jaeger company, with the remainder armed with muskets and bayonets.

Assuming you're talking about the post-1804 organisation, Light Infantry Battalions (Leichte-Infanterie), are the ones that wore dark green coats from 1808.

In every Line and Light company there were 20 Schutzen ('shooters') armed with rifles and trained as Skirmishers.

In 1811, the Light Battalions were reorganised into 2 companies of Fusilers (Line), and two flank companies, one called Karabiniers and the other Schutzen. The latter were trained Skirmishers armed with a mix of muskets and rifles.

So, in game terms, I'd treat them as French Voltigeurs of the same period, with both Regulars and Skirmishers as options. Furthermore, you should have the option to equip some of the latter with Rifles. Pre-1804 the rifle-armed Groups should also count as 'No Bayonet'.

Simon

Ronan the Librarian
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Ronan the Librarian »

Just joined and noticed this thread. There seems to be quite a lot of confusion and mis-information floating about, so some observations might be in order:-

1) Feldjager were NOT infantry skirmishers. They were a mounted military police/messenger corps (more correctly known as the Freiwillige Jager zu Pferde) attached to headquarters groups and etat-major. I think they were disbanded after the 1809 campaign, but they broadly fulfilled the same roles as their Prussian counterparts.

2) There were two types of schutzen in a Bavarian infantry battalion - men with muskets and men with rifles. I don't have much information on the post-1811 changes, which brought Bavarian battalions (both line and light) into line with their French allies, but for the 1809 period there was a total of just under 40 schutzen per company, of whom 7 men had rifles. On the march, schutzen were part of the third rank and were detached in action (the rest of the third rank stepped back and acted as "gap fillers, the Bavarians traditionally fighting in two ranks - a system introduced by Count Rumford, a Loyalist refugee from the AWI - like the British). Each company would provide a senior NCO, or even a junior officer, and a battalion's entire schutzen component would have a more senior officer added and a musician (hornist).

3) If you read "With Eagles to Glory" and "Thunder on the Danube" both by John Gill, you will find considerable detail on how the Bavarian forces were organised and fought. Among other things, you will find that it was quite common to combine:
i) the schutzen detachments of a battalion;
ii) the schutzen detachments of a regiment (two battalions); and
iii) the schutzen detachments of a brigade (four battalions, five with the divisional light battalion included).
It was also quite common, within the schutzen detachment(s), to combine the rifle-rmed component to provide a sub-unit that could engage the enemy at longer distances, or act as snipers. Where larger detachments were combined, a field-grade officer would be assigned to command them.

4) After 1811, the infantry (both types) were ordered to adopt the six-company French organisation, and those units which went to Russia did. In this, all the schutzen were gathered into a single company (note that this was effectively what happened pre-1811); as far as I have been able to ascertain, the ratio of rifles to muskets remained the same. Bear in mind that, even in "jaeger" units, it was rare for all men to be armed with rifles - the 95th was a rare exception, with even the KGL Light Battalions having a substantial proportion of musket men - because the slower loading/firing rate of the rifle was understood and hence the need to provide faster-firing support with greater reach and a bayonet.

5) Another option for SP2 games is an AdC undertaking a recce protected by a group of cavalry (light horse or dragoons) and infantry, as the depot squadrons/battalions were used to provide the etat-major, or escorts for the divisional commanders, the Crown Prince, DeRoy and Wrede. Again, these are detailed in "With Eagles to Glory".

Incidentally, for anyone looking for top-notch uniform information on the Bavarian Army, try this:-
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... ntler.html

Also, Google "Kobell, Whilhelm von" to see contemporary paintings of Bavarian troops in action, illustrating formations and field clothing (trousers were universally worn, not breeches and gaiters). The siege of Cosel illustrates a recce by staff officers protected by some infantry and a troop of dragoons.

Hope that helps.

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Fettster
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Fettster »

sjwalker51 wrote:There's not a lot in English about the Bavarians, other than the Osprey and Nafziger's book but it might be worth getting Rawkin's book on The Army of Bavaria, available as a DVD on Amazon or as an download from his website at 'thehistorybookman' (I followed the link on the Amazon review) - at only £4.50 for 200+ pages of colour uniform info, it looks worth a punt!
I have the Duchy of Warsaw Ebook and it is excellent. Apparently he did one on the Russians that should be out as ebook some time and I await with baited breath. I order mine directly from him as a emailed download.
Kind Regards

Leigh

BaronVonWreckedoften
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by BaronVonWreckedoften »

For the benefit of anyone trawling through the archives, there are now Bavarian lists here:-

http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/wp-cont ... 0-1815.pdf

For those thinking that the only reason for using them are the "cool" uniforms, until 1809, the Bavarians routinely used two-rank line for firing and manoeuvring - although theoretically, they changed to three-rank line from just before the 1809 campaign, but it is difficult to know how many units had fully adopted it by the time the campaign kicked off. Research suggests that Deroy's division had redefined their formations, but had also reduced the number of schutzen from 36 per company (1 in 5) to 30 (1 in 6); of these 6-7 (1 in 5) were rifle-armed, whilst from 1810 riflemen were split up and paired with men armed with rifled muskets/carbines, the rest of the schutzen using plain muskets. Another feature adopted by Deroy in 1809 was using three ranks for the schutzen when operating separately from their parent companies, and many Bavarian officers preferred to let the men operate in threes (as opposed to, say, the pairs used by British troops and their allies).

The six-company organisation was only adopted in 1811, when the infantry in general "went all French" in order for the king to collar some extra subsidies from Napoleon. Incidentally, the raupenhelm was considered an essential part of the Bavarian soldier and you needed written permission from the king to avoid wearing it in battle. During the 1812 campaign, a chevauleger officer who had received a severe head-wound in a previous campaign could no longer bear the weight of the helmet and had to get the sovereign to agree to him wearing a bicorne (I guess the note from his mum just wasn't good enough!).

The Rawkins book on the Bavarian army is ok for the basics and not a bad starting point for non-German speakers, but a lot of the smaller details are wrong, or not covered. For those who do speak German, there is a more recent work by Stein, Gartner & Bunde still available:

https://www.amazon.de/Bayerische-Armee- ... 3938447516

However, there are rumours of an English translation being prepared for publication later this year, so maybe don't rush out and buy just yet!
No plan survives first contact with the dice.

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