Draft Bavarian army list

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Cptkremmen3
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Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Cptkremmen3 »

Guys,

I am no expert at this and i only have the osprey book on Napoleons allies to go on, but i have done a draft Bavarian army list. I am trying to make it a competent but not uber army.

Fusiliers / grenadiers and veteran Fusiliers can join formation together.
The Feld Jager can create a formation together or can make a formation with fusiliers/grenadiers/ veteran fusiliers if skirmishing in front of them.

I have used the excellent spreadsheet offered by one of our forum members.

If anyone who knows more about Bavarians than me has any bright ideas let me know. I thought they would be a little more shooty than French but a little less shooty than Prussians...

Andy

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/780 ... %20V1.xlsx

Archdukek
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Archdukek »

Thanks for taking the plunge with this Andy.

Quick first thoughts, I think the list may need to distinguish between the early Bavarian army and that after it reformed along French lines and practice.

I would give Bavarian Fusiliers a "First Only" Controlled Volley but not Sharp Practice since I'm not sure that their fire tactics were that much better than most of their contemporaries. Depends a bit on how the Austrians and later French are rated.

Also not sure about Pas de Charge for the Grenadiers, Aggressive seems enough.

I will try to give this some further thoughts later.

John

Cptkremmen3
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Cptkremmen3 »

Appreciate the response. I know nothing about Bavarians just decided to do them because of excellent front rank miniatures.

Agree with your comments

I thought though almost all regulars had sharp practice? The frenchies just had pas de charge as an alternative to show they preferred column attacks to shooting?

Andy

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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Archdukek »

Andy,
I think you are right about Sharp Practice. Now I've had a chance to check out more of the draft Napoleonic lists it does seem to be a feature of Regular troops. So I'd give it to the Grenadiers instead of Pas de Charge as well as to the Fusiliers.

I suggest that you should focus the list on the period from 1805-1814 when the Bavarians were allied to the French as a key member of the Confederation of the Rhine. Prior to this in the Revolutionary Wars they were allied to the Austrians. Even as French allies they still maintained their separation as an army and were less integrated into French doctrine and practice as say the Poles. I'm still trying to find out how their tactical practices changed if at all over the period.

Certainly by 1811 they had switched from the 4 fusilier company battalions to the 6 company French model with a Grenadier and Light (Schutzen) company so by then I would be inclined to allow them to field some of their Line troops as Skirmishers as well as including their specialist Light Infantry/Jagers.

I'd also drop the reference to Cuirassiers. One of the two regiments was converted to Chevaulegers in 1799 and the other to Dragoons in 1804. All the cavalry were converted to Chevaulegers in 1811. It is hard to find out how much impact this had on how they fought if you will forgive the pun.

John

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Derek H
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Derek H »

What's the justification for allowing different types of troops to join together in formations?

It's something we do all the time as a house rule so that players can use all their different toys (though I'm in the midddle of painting up 50 fusiliers from a single French company) but is their any historical justification for having it as being formally put into the army list for Bavarians?

It's an ability not given to other troops and I wonder why you're proposing it for the Bavarians. Did these troop typres ever combine into single low level formations? I've certainly never heard of any nation combining troops like that at the level Sharp Practice is representing.
Last edited by Derek H on Mon May 30, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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sjwalker51
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by sjwalker51 »

I'd be very cautious about assigning 'Sharp Practice' to them (or indeed, many of the other troops in draft lists): it's the only characteristic that increases the RATE of fire by infantry, and represents high quality troops experienced in musketry able to fire much more rapidly than the norm - it's the old cliche of the British being able to fire 5 rounds a minute to the Frenchie's' 3.

So, is there any evidence that the Bavarians c. 1812 were significantly better drilled and faster when firing than French fusiliers of the same period (taking them as the 'average' troop type when it comes to musketry)? I think not.

It's quite OK to have completely average troops with no special unit characteristics whatsoever - they are the rank and file of every army - the main appeal of fielding Bavarians should be the sky blue uniforms and helmets rather than any assigned special super-powers that don't stand up to close examination. :-)

(Oh, and I agree with Derek on the combining of different troop types in the same formation - it's inappropriate at the skirmish-level that SP is set at - even if the scenario allows disparate Groups from different companies of the same battalion to be working together, they wouldn't have drilled together, so operating as individual Groups only, even if that causes more headaches for their Leaders - which IS appropriate).

Cptkremmen3
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Cptkremmen3 »

Thanks for all the replies guys.

The comment about allowing different line troops to work together was as a result of comments in the rules about maybe allowing say regulars and grenadiers to join together in a formation. Was not meant as any big thing.

I am in 2 minds about the whole thing, I am seriously considering just using the French list out of the book as it says it covers french and allies.

Main 2 things that then see to be sadly lacking are any rifle armed skirmishers and militia landwehr.

OR I could say they are closer to Prussians than French??

If I had to use the French list out of the book or the Prussian list on this forum which would you say was closer to the Bavarians?

I am feeling out of my depth and just want to buy some cool Bavarian models and use them :)

Andy.

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sjwalker51
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by sjwalker51 »

Now that I can understand! The Bavarians always look good on the tabletop. I'd get started on the painting and work on the list in the meantime.

AFAIK, Bavarian infantry drill changed significantly in 1804 when the regulations moved away from traditional Prussian linear tactics and adopted more French style tactics, including much greater use of skirmish screens. So I'd base them on French, rather than Prussian, lists for the 1805-1812 period.

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sjwalker51
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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by sjwalker51 »

There's not a lot in English about the Bavarians, other than the Osprey and Nafziger's book but it might be worth getting Rawkin's book on The Army of Bavaria, available as a DVD on Amazon or as an download from his website at 'thehistorybookman' (I followed the link on the Amazon review) - at only £4.50 for 200+ pages of colour uniform info, it looks worth a punt!

EDIT: in fact, I've just ordered the Bavarian and Italian Ebooks, just to see what they're like!

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Re: Draft Bavarian army list

Post by Archdukek »

Undoubtedly, there is a risk with any of these lists that we are seeking to make a distinction without a difference. In other words, while I would prefer to play with a list that that treats my Bavarians a little differently than as French in Cornflour Blue uniforms and Raupenhelm, it may be that such a distinction isn't justified by a difference in practice. Especially when it can be difficult to obtain details of how different nationalities fought at the low level represented in a Sharp Practice game.

Also there is often a question as to when various reforms and changes to regulations actually kicked in. For example, as Simon says, the Bavarians definitely moved towards the French system over this period. It would appear that there was little time for real change in Bavarian behaviour during the 1805 campaign, but that the move to using French style organisation, including embedded skirmishers, was definitely in place by the time of the 1812 campaign and later. I know of other rules which allow the Bavarians to use skirmishers from 1811 onwards. The big question is did they fight this way in the 1809 campaign?

I certainly wouldn't object to anyone using the French Peninsular list if they simply wanted to get some Bavarian figures on the table. They look too cool not to use them! :)

John

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