CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Richard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:13 pm

Can I say here that I disagree entirely.

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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Truscott Trotter » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:15 pm

Hi Rich,
Of course you may say you disagree! :D

And as author of the mission in discussion any insights you care to share will be of great interest I am sure.

BTW are you disagreeing with MLB's changing of the support points or the other stuff about tactics or the bit about the victory conditions or all of the above?

My German opponent will also be keen on any tips on how to approach this mission. Apart from maybe keeeping one section in reserve I would probably play it like MLB's Soviet opponent.
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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby MLB » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:50 pm

I'm with TT here Rich, we'd love to hear a bit more insight on this scenario design and intention. Originally it looked a bit too easy for the Germans, now it may have swung in the other direction.

Would you mind also clarifying exactly how the rolls for supports are carried out for each scenario (as per the rule book - one roll by the attacker and that applies to both sides, or, separate rolls for each side, which is how the wording in the campaign PDF could be interpreted).
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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby rim66 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:23 am

In Rich's absence, I can confirm the intention is separate dice rolls. Personally, I like this as it adds Fog of War. It prevents players sitting down and working out that their opponent has deployed all their supports or what might still be coming on. I can see the sense of a single roll in a one off game, but campaigns offer the opportunity to break away from that and do things differently - it should all balance over the course of the games. But that's just my view and others will, of course, differ - horses for courses and all that.

Kind regards,

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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Peter » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:13 am

Having played the campaign - and been on the rough end of it - I'd agree with what Monty has said.

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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Truscott Trotter » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:51 am

I don't have a problem with the separate die rolls
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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Richard » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Okay, design intent is this.

Three possible outcomes.

1. The Germans can win the scenario by simply ignoring the FOO.
2. The Germans can lose the scenario but still stop the Soviet barrage.
3. The Soviets can win and retain the barrage.

I actually think that there is a fairly even chance of all three, and, on balance, result 1 is good for the Germans, result 3 for the Soviets and result 2 has benefits and negative for both.

A Probe action would be too easy for the Jerries. especially with a wide front table, as they could, with a well played Patrol Phase, just slip past the Sovs and win the game. A Patrol action actually demands a proper win. Let's face it, there is much at stake here so a proper win should be demanded and, as stated at the top, I reckon that there is about a 33% chance of all three results and I think that provides a nice balance.

Comprendez?

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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby MLB » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:20 am

Thanks Rich, I see your case against the Probe scenario. While I’m certain I’m not going to shift your opinion one iota, I’d offer these thoughts on the scenario as it stands.

The Russians need only maintain the status quo to win, the burden is all on the Germans.

The new rules for the FOO mean that against a competent Russian player the chances of getting within 6” without first driving the Russians from the table is quite remote, so victory really falls on a normal scenario victory.

However, this is not a normal Patrol scenario, not only can the Russians end up rolling for higher support, they can spend that on entrenchments on a table devoid of any other hard cover.

The Russians have a 66% chance of getting two entrenchments or more. They have a 66% chance of starting the Patrol phase on either flank. Placing the real OP in a corner and surrounding it with a cluster of JoPs will allow them to deploy a mutually supporting entrenched screen in front of the OP. Both LMG squads will be entrenched and potentially one rifle squad, all within 4” of each other and with the SL in the centre able to activate all three. That way they can spread the hits and shock and have a good chance of all being activated most phases.

The Russians need do no more, their flanks are secure and they must only deal with a frontal attack. This is why I’m not seeing this as a Patrol scenario. The Germans must attack this position for any chance of victory, but they are outnumbered, face equal firepower, cannot call on any HE support and must attack across open ground and light cover. The odds seem to be all stacked in the Russian’s favour.

This is not two platoons on patrol encountering each other in No-Mans-Land, it feels much more like an assault on a prepared position.

I really like the premise of the scenario in a campaign context. I love the way the result has implications down the track beyond the usual casualties and opinions. In its present form it’s just not attractive to the German, the cost of victory looks too high and I’d be inclined to suggest that the Germans play a few phases and if the dice are kind and roll in your favour, then go for it, otherwise you’re beating your head against a brick wall and you might as well keep your powder dry for later. In that sense it could be a rather brief and unsatisfactory gaming experience and yet the underlying premise screams out for it to be more.

Can the Germans win this? Of course, it’s possible, but it will be decided more by luck than anything else, because essentially it will be decided by a shootout with the dice.
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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby Peter » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:38 pm

MLB. The Germans have three platoons. As the German I'd be prepared to exchange casualties. In the case above the Russians got a good tactical advantage early on. Had that not happened, the Germans would have had the advantage in activation and acquiring CoD dice. It's not a guaranteed win, but if the Russians take a lot of casualties you might well get a strategic win. But as it stood originally, the Russians were on a hiding to nothing.
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Re: CoC Storming the Citadel Scenario 1 'Eyes Down'

Postby MLB » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:37 pm

Yep, I see your point and to that extent I guess the jury is still out. I suppose we just need to see more playings and a few more completed campaigns before we really know if it makes a difference. As I said in my AAR this is only a minor setback, lots still to play for.
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